[Xmca-l] Re: Object of activity (was: Swedish activist Elon Ersson wins the day)
Andy Blunden
andyb@marxists.org
Thu Jul 26 03:28:09 PDT 2018
So "object" in your sense, the same sense in which Engestrom
uses "object." This is something quite different from "goal"
in Leontyev's sense, which is what the subject intends to
transform the object into. Except that that concept of
"goal" (intention) does not exist in Engestrom's system,
only "outcome", which is clearly not the same thing as
"goal" because things don't always go as intended. But from
what I gather of "according to the activity goal", the
"activity goal" is what Leontyev called the "motivation" -
the reason for doing something. What you (and Engestrom) are
calling "object" is like what Marx refers to as
/Arbeitsgegenstand /- or "object of labour" (the "something"
in your quote) whose form is changed. I think that's the
Russian /predmet/. Fair enough.
So you are contrasting "task goal" and "goal of activity".
Fair enough, but isn't it confusing to use "goal" for both?
That means you can never use the word "goal" without
qualifying it as the "task goal" or the "goal of activity".
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 26/07/2018 7:13 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
> Since my original endeavours I have switched to referring
> to the task goal or goal of activity, in conformance with
> Bedny et al's terminology. Personally this does not change
> my systemic formulations, but it does seem to point to
> holes in others', whilst reducing ambiguity.
>
> "An object of activity that can be material or mental
> (symbols, images, etc.) is something that can be modified
> by a subject according to the activity goal (Bedny and
> Karwowski, 2007; Leont’ev, 1981; Rubinshtein, 1957;
> Zinchenko, 1995)." Bedny (2015, p. 91)
>
> This is from the chapter "Basic Concepts and Terminology"
> which offers further elaboration (ref below).
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> Bedny, G. Z. (2015) /Application of Systemic-Structural
> Activity Theory to Design and Training/. Boca Raton: CRC Press
>
> On 26 July 2018 at 02:54, Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org
> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>> wrote:
>
> ... to continue this dialogue on winning and losing, a
> now-departed friend who was a writer once commented to
> me after we had together watched an inspiring play
> performed by Melbourne Workers' Theatre, that for the
> working class *every* struggle, every story of
> victory, ends in defeat, simply because the object of
> the workers' movement lies if at all in the future;
> the road to socialism is a series of small victories
> followed by defeats. Until .... So Elon is acting in a
> fine tradition.
>
> The distinction between goal and object (by whatever
> names) was relevant for the recent xmca discussion
> around the Brazilian social movements, which kept
> popping up with different goals, but, one suspects,
> shared a common object.
>
> Andy
>
> PS. For the distinction between goal and object, I
> rely on A N Leonytev's succinct definition of action:
> "Processes, the object and motive of which do not
> coincide with one another, we shall call ‘actions’."
> but choice of words for object, goal, aim, motive,
> etc., is problematic. I have chosen "object" for what
> Hegel calls "Intention" and Leontyev calls
> "motivation" and "goal" for what ANL calls "object" in
> the above quote.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
> On 25/07/2018 10:21 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>> She achieved her goal. Her object will take longer to
>> realise. Important to recognise the difference.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden
>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>> On 25/07/2018 10:18 PM, Julian Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> She wins and yet she doesn’t – the guy she went to
>>> ‘rescue’ was deported on another flight, but she got
>>> the support of people on the plane (some even joined
>>> her protest) and is being applauded by millions
>>> worldwide now: this is a growing aspect of
>>> resistance activism, losing and winning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And the battle against deportations, and indeed
>>> fascism, in Sweden and elsewhere continues….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Julian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *<xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf
>>> of Andy Blunden <andyb@marxists.org>
>>> <mailto:andyb@marxists.org>
>>> *Reply-To: *"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Date: *Wednesday, 25 July 2018 at 13:11
>>> *To: *"xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu"
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Swedish activist Elon Ersson
>>> wins the day
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, you can see the stress on his young women's
>>> face and she stands strong under enormous pressure
>>> and she wins. Wonderful!
>>>
>>> andy
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden
>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>>> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
>>>
>>> On 25/07/2018 10:07 PM, Julian Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> I think you and xmca may like this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/25/swedish-student-plane-protest-stops-mans-deportation-afghanistan
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/25/swedish-student-plane-protest-stops-mans-deportation-afghanistan>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ☺
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Julian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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