[Xmca-l] Re: on translation

[Wolff-Michael Roth]

Thanks much. Will try to get this one.

As to the name... you know but perhaps not others that there was a debate
about the authorship, and I have to look it up again in the office, I think
Todorov was involved there as well.

m


Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Applied Cognitive Science
MacLaurin Building A567
University of Victoria
Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>



On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 3:43 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, this is in response to that "Editions de Minuit" edition, which
> doesn't even get the author correct!
>
> http://www.lambert-lucas.com/marxisme-et-philosophie-du-langage
>
>
> dk
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
> Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
> Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'
>
> Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
>
> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi David,
> >
> > thanks for the extended reflections on the issue.
> >
> > Can you tell us who the publisher is of the Voloshinov text? I have a
> > French translation--published as Bakhtine...
> >
> > And to the whole is more than the parts. I really came to understand
> > Heidegger after reading him in English, the different versions ... but
> this
> > better understand also may have to do that in the meantime I did a PhD
> and
> > became an academic.
> >
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------------------
> > Applied Cognitive Science
> > MacLaurin Building A567
> > University of Victoria
> > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 1:21 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > My wife read the Vegetarian and liked it. But I would say that when she
> > > reads Korean she inadvertantly mistranslates everything, because Korean
> > has
> > > a stock of older, pure Korean words which cluster around every day
> usage
> > > and then a much larger stock of words borrowed from Chinese and adapted
> > in
> > > various ways, rather the way that English has a stock of Germanic words
> > > like "table" and a much larger stock of words borrowed from Latin and
> > Greek
> > > and adapted in various ways for scientific use. To me, Korean words are
> > sui
> > > generis, and this means I am a lot slower than she is: I don't look at
> a
> > > Korean word and try to discern a historically distant Chinese soul. On
> > the
> > > other hand, I do use a much more "top down" strategy: so for example
> > when I
> > > read the Vegetarian I quickly realized it was a kind of rewrite of
> > Kafka's
> > > "Metamorphosis" but the heroine is turning into a plant rather than an
> > > insect: "You are what you eat". So then the details didn't matter, but
> > the
> > > result was that she finished the book and I didn't.
> > >
> > > The argument we sometimes hear that this or that text is untranslatable
> > is
> > > either simply stating the obvious or else it is a claim of linguistic
> > > exceptionalism based on national exceptionalism. Obviouisly, all
> > languages
> > > are ineffable, because all words are; language evolves to fill semantic
> > > niches as efficiently as possible. But precisely because this is true,
> > > translation from a semantic niche in one language to a semantic niche
> in
> > > another is not only possible, it's an inevitable part of communication
> > even
> > > within the language. So I think that there isn't really any such thing
> > > as "mistranslation," there are only more or less successful types of
> > > translation for different purposes. The translator has the right to
> take
> > > all kinds of liberties, so long as the translation is replicable and
> the
> > > liberties are undoable. That's why what Alexander Pope and George
> Chapman
> > > did to the Iliad is perfectly valid, and it's also why what the Soviet
> > > editors did to Vygotsky, even though they were actually changing
> Russian
> > to
> > > Russian, was not. There is a wonderful French translation of
> Voloshinov's
> > > "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language" which is bilingual--Russian on
> > one
> > > page and French on the facing one. When I read it, I find it
> > non-redundant:
> > > the whole is more than the multiplication of the part.
> > >
> > > When we translated "Thinking and Speech" into Korean we read it in
> > French,
> > > Italian, two English versions, and Japanese as well as the original
> > > Russian. What struck me then--what still strikes me today--is that the
> > key
> > > problems have absolutely nothing to do with translation, and with all
> the
> > > kerfuffle over mistranslation they remain entirely unaddressed. Chapter
> > > Five, for example, says that true concepts emerge in adolescence and
> not
> > > until; Chapter Six has the tension between the everyday and scientific
> > > concept right there in elementary school. Why does Vygotsky treat
> > > adolescence before elementary school, and complexes like
> > > pseudoconcepts after everyday concepts? You might say--well, he changed
> > his
> > > mind, and in the preface he does say that he changed his mind and had
> to
> > > discard a lot of work. But neither chapter was discarded, ergo they
> must
> > > fit together in some way.
> > >
> > > One way to resolve it does bring us back to issues of translation by a
> > > slightly different route. There are two very different models of
> concept
> > > formation being presented. One is based on binaries, like "tall/short",
> > > "narrow/wide", and it is a laboratory abstraction. The other is based
> on
> > > what is usually called "expanding horizons" (the measure of
> generality),
> > > and it's a generalization of everyday life. The binary based model is
> > > self-contained and "sui generis", the way that I read Korean texts (and
> > it
> > > is why I have no trouble with pairs of words like "Gemeinschaft" and
> > > "Gesellschaft", "coherence and cohesion", "societal and social"). The
> > > "expanding horizons" version is more like the way my wife reads (and it
> > is
> > > why every word she reads undergoes a slight mistranslation, but she
> > always
> > > manages to finish the book).
> > >
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > >
> > > Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
> > > Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
> > > Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'
> > >
> > > Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
> > >
> > > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 2:21 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
> > > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > For those interested in the translation issues I raised earlier on
> this
> > > > list, you might be interested in this (and David K. might have a lot
> to
> > > say
> > > > to this point, too):
> > > >
> > > > Lost in (mis)translation? English take on Korean novel has critics up
> > in
> > > > arms
> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2018/jan/15/
> > > > lost-in-mistranslation-english-take-on-korean-novel-
> > > has-critics-up-in-arms
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --------------------
> > > > Applied Cognitive Science
> > > > MacLaurin Building A567
> > > > University of Victoria
> > > > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> > > >
> > > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> > > > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> > > > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> > > > mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> > > >
> > >
> >
>