[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces
Edward Wall
ewall@umich.edu
Thu Jul 13 11:57:53 PDT 2017
Mike
What you say is interesting, but it is not my experience and not that of any I have talked so far (other than yourself). I can, for example, imagine winning the lottery. I can imagine even imagine that I felt a feeling that most would feel on that occurrence; however I do not feel those feelings if I imagine winning the lottery (I just tried it, by the way). I can imagine that I came home tired tomorrow evening, I can imagine that I was tired, but I do not feel tired when I do that imagining (even though I was tired last night so I know what those feeling were like). It may quite well be a lack in me and others.
Anyway, how does it feel when you imagine coming home tired or do I misunderstand. Are you saying you imagine coming home tired and find yourself feeling something - say irritation - or are you saying, in your body and mind, you feel what you normally identify as tiredness?
Ed
> On Jul 12, 2017, at 10:19 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you won
> the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what you
> like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a pathology (!)
>
> I have discovered that a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
> accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
> wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will be
> able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca. For example:
>
> Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful daughter,
> Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun Og
> (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. Siding
> with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a blustering,
> bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a number
> of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will become
> mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
>
>
> Now I am off to watch the movie! :-)
>
>
> mike
>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one can
>> feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like (there is
>> some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent, says
>> “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
>>
>> Ed Wall
>>
>>> On Jul 12, 2017, at 7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip Harberg
>>> and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The
>> book
>>> appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to listen
>> to
>>> Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a great
>>> resource.
>>>
>>> Thanks Peter and Daniel.
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
>> scoping
>>>> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions for
>> you
>>>> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few years
>> ago
>>>> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make decisions -
>>>> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling, which
>> I
>>>> would also like to take a closer look at.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards and many thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Daniel
>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Daniel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a musician's
>>>> *inner
>>>>> ear*,
>>>>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound without
>>>>> words,
>>>>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
>> internal
>>>>> voices
>>>>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests that
>>>>> hearing
>>>>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception: it is
>>>> the
>>>>> surface
>>>>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a *person*,
>>>> who
>>>>> has
>>>>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces of
>>>> this
>>>>> inner
>>>>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
>> voices--
>>>>> yes,
>>>>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
>>>>> experience
>>>>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
>> experiences
>>>>> that
>>>>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he presents.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered about
>>>>> those
>>>>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
>> ability,
>>>>> but I have
>>>>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar strings:
>> my
>>>>> inner
>>>>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd like
>>>> to
>>>>> take this
>>>>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate of
>> Ira
>>>>> Gershwin
>>>>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
>>>>> Rainbow,
>>>>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime? Harberg
>> gave
>>>> a
>>>>> lot
>>>>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
>>>>>
>>>>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
>>>>> Words make you think a thought;
>>>>> Songs make you feel a thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
>>>>> conversation
>>>>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the
>> unity
>>>>> of thinking
>>>>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality. Personally, I
>>>> have
>>>>> trouble
>>>>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
>>>> experiencing
>>>>> emotions
>>>>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking
>> about
>>>>> feelings
>>>>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
>>>> cultural
>>>>> experience
>>>>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
>>>>>
>>>>> My two cents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
>>>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
>>>> speech,
>>>>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
>>>>> musician,
>>>>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently glanced
>> at
>>>>> in
>>>>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in the
>>>>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might be
>>>> more
>>>>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively "hear"
>>>>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups of)
>>>>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
>>>> extreme
>>>>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who lost
>>>>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score, practice
>>>>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate what
>>>>> they
>>>>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does this.
>>>> Need
>>>>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
>>>> ability?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
>>>> events
>>>>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the quickened
>>>>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
>> feelings
>>>>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are these
>>>>> alike,
>>>>>> and different?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart and
>>>> da
>>>>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
>>>> internal
>>>>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different? How
>>>>> does
>>>>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate to
>> a
>>>>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now suggested
>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening but
>>>>> not
>>>>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
>>>> reflection,
>>>>> or
>>>>>> other factors alter it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology
>> offer
>>>>> (or
>>>>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
>>>>> ability,
>>>>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
>>>>> recommend
>>>>>> readings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you Peter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
>>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ulvi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and its
>>>>> use
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
>>>> richness
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> emotion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and thought
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> characters
>>>>>>>> - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
>>>>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
>>>>> works
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
>>>>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who specializes
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who hear
>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> both normal
>>>>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue of
>>>>>>>> theatrical characters,
>>>>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> creative
>>>>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
>>>> voices
>>>>>>> play
>>>>>>>> in their
>>>>>>>> work and thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in which
>>>>>>>> Fernyhough
>>>>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
>>>> phenomenon
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest stage
>>>> in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
>>>> study
>>>>>>>> private speech
>>>>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to linguistic
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> sociolinguistic
>>>>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
>>>>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
>>>>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
>>>>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
>>>>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
>>>>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
>>>>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner thought and momologue in a work
>>>> to
>>>>>>> convey
>>>>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
>>>>>>>> Especially
>>>>>>>>> inner thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
>>>>> Legend
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> love.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
>>>> characters
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My questions are:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
>>>> work?
>>>>>> i.e.
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
>>>>> terms
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
>>>>>> possess.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>> Director,
>>>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>>>>> Fordham University
>>>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>> Director,
>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>> Fordham University
>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
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