[Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4 article for discussion

Wolff-Michael Roth wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com
Sun Dec 17 05:24:57 PST 2017 

ave done an analysis and hope the article will see the light of publication
sometime soon. Michael


Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Applied Cognitive Science
MacLaurin Building A567
University of Victoria
Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>

New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
<https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>*

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:24 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy, I don't know what you are trying to tell me--may be other words
> or expression would do. But already Ogden and Richards (1922) listed over
> 20 different uses of the term; and the *Handbook of Semiotics* (Nöth,
> 1990) states: "The meaning of meaning is a semiotic labyrinth both on
> theoretical and on terminological grounds" (p.92).
> If there are so many different uses, then we are finding ourselves in the
> Tower of Babel even when we are all speaking English, let alone all the
> other languages. In our field specifically, the Marx we are getting to read
> is not at all the Marx that Russians and Germans read (those language
> versions seem to be matching each other quite well). I h
> Michael
>
>
> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------
> Applied Cognitive Science
> MacLaurin Building A567
> University of Victoria
> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
>
> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 4:55 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
>> This leads to a performative contradiction, Michael. If you
>> are saying that the word "meaning" is not used consistently
>> in CHAT or across thee various discourses of linguistics, I
>> heartily agree. But we can't "solve" it with a performative
>> contradiction!
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden
>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
>> On 17/12/2017 11:49 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
>> > James, the term *meaning* is so problematic that it might be useful to
>> just
>> > stop using it, or to limit its usage in some way. I make this point in:
>> >
>> > Roth, W.-M. (2015). Meaning and the real life of language: Learning from
>> > "pathological" cases in science classrooms. Linguistics and Education,
>> 30,
>> > 42–55
>> >
>> > the original title was: “Meaning, in essence, means nothing”: lessons
>> about the
>> > real life of language in education from “pathological” cases in science
>> > classrooms (http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth/PREPRINTS/Penis_301R.pdf)
>> >
>> > In it I analyze, among others, a classroom episode where physics
>> students'
>> > conversation consists in 10 articulation of the word "penis". (The title
>> > got changed somewhere in the process, perhaps even after the proofs)
>> >
>> > And I also deal with the problematic of the term in Roth, W.-M. (2013).
>> > Meaning and mental representation: A pragmatic approach. Rotterdam, The
>> > Netherlands: Sense Publishers.
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------------------
>> > Applied Cognitive Science
>> > MacLaurin Building A567
>> > University of Victoria
>> > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
>> > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
>> >
>> > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
>> > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-dir
>> ections-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics
>> -of-mathematics/>*
>> >
>> > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:39 AM, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello Michael, for some reason I missed out your message; now I've
>> read it
>> >> and your article too. You might still disagree with me, but this is
>> how I
>> >> see it through the lens of materialist dialectics:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Experience as perceptual understanding precedes meaning as rational
>> >> understanding,
>> >> with the latter not only bearing the heritage of but also reaching a
>> >> sublimation of the former. Thus, there is neither experience-less
>> meaning
>> >> nor meaning-less experience, and hence the defining of consciousness
>> as the
>> >> experience of experiences is to go hand in hand with the defining of
>> >> consciousness as the meaning of meanings.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> James
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *_____________________________________*
>> >>
>> >> *James Ma*  *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
>> >> <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 14 December 2017 at 22:54, Wolff-Michael Roth <
>> >> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi James, it looks like you did not read my message or my message did
>> not
>> >>> come through. For Vygotsky, consciousness is experience of experience,
>> >> not
>> >>> meaning of meaning. The "inner contradictions" are not logical ones,
>> like
>> >>> your talk about the mental suggests. They exist because activity
>> theory
>> >>> looks at living phenomena, which, because in time and producing time,
>> >>> inherently contain differences... The smallest unit of movement still
>> is
>> >>> movement, and within it, there is change, so that the different parts
>> are
>> >>> not the same but themselves in movement. Michael
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> --------------------
>> >>> Applied Cognitive Science
>> >>> MacLaurin Building A567
>> >>> University of Victoria
>> >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
>> >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
>> >>>
>> >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
>> >>> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
>> >>> directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
>> >>> mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:45 PM, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> David's point that consciousness is the meaning of meaning suits me
>> >> well
>> >>>> and I'd like to extend a bit, referring to social science research in
>> >>>> general as well as neoformation in materialist dialectics.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I see consciousness as a nexus through which mental activity takes
>> >> place,
>> >>>> i.e. it is where mental content is enlivened (animated) or more to
>> the
>> >>>> point "semiotised" in that it is predominantly made up of signs (or
>> >>>> "psychic images" as Jung would say) and their likeness. This brings
>> >> into
>> >>>> focus the relationship between signs and their likeness - such
>> >>> relationship
>> >>>> manifests itself as the meaning of meaning that is ever intentional
>> >>>> (wilful), interpretative (hence subjective) and situational (tied to
>> >>> given
>> >>>> social, cultural and historical contexts).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Premised on this, in social science research, the researcher's
>> >>>> self-function as instrument for research is arguably to be first and
>> >>>> foremost recognised. The profundity of ethics is thus concerned with
>> >>> people
>> >>>> and knowledge. Here, "people" refers to not only those you are
>> studying
>> >>> but
>> >>>> also those who are conducting the study; "knowledge" contains the
>> >> notion
>> >>>> that by doing research you make a claim to knowledge in terms of how
>> >> you
>> >>>> see what you see and why. The very purpose of social science research
>> >> is
>> >>>> thus not to offer a definitive answer to a big question but rather to
>> >>>> induct other people into your way of thinking and knowing. In this
>> >> sense,
>> >>>> social science research is by nature subjective, self-evident and
>> >>>> insusceptible of final conclusions - to which the *ad infinitum* of
>> >>>> Peircean semiosis applies.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regarding neoformation, the transformation of quantity into quality
>> >>> occurs
>> >>>> when the meaning of meaning undergoes reconstitution or
>> reconstruction
>> >>>> within the individual, as in the case of Leandro in Roth's article.
>> >>>> Importantly, internal contradictions within an individual precipitate
>> >>>> neoformation as a qualitative change, that is, instead of knowing, he
>> >> is
>> >>>> reconstituting or reconstructing the meaning of meaning instead of
>> >>> knowing
>> >>>> it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> James
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 13 December 2017 at 11:08, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>> Alfredo:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Actually, I think there are three threads we can twist together.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> a) Do adults develop? This is one of the major issues that divided
>> >>>> Vygotsky
>> >>>>> from the "psycho-technicians" of his time (e.g. Isaac Spielrein).
>> >>>> Vygotsky
>> >>>>> was consistent: the child is not a short adult, and the adult is not
>> >> a
>> >>>>> senile child, so child development cannot be seen as a kind of dress
>> >>>>> rehearsal for adult development, nor can adult development be seen
>> as
>> >>>>> continuing child development by other means: there is a qualitative
>> >>>>> difference between the adolescent and the young adult that does not
>> >>> exist
>> >>>>> even between the schoolchild and the adolescent.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> b) Did Vygotsky ever rise to the concrete? Should he even have
>> tried?
>> >>>> This
>> >>>>> is one of the issues that divides Sasha from Wolff-Michael, and also
>> >>>>> divides Wolff-Michael from me. Sasha believes that without rising to
>> >>> the
>> >>>>> concrete, we cannot speak of the Marxist method at all. To me that
>> >>>>> necessarily means making the concept of neoformation more specific
>> >> and
>> >>>> more
>> >>>>> age-dependent--but Wolff-Michael wants to make it much more general
>> >> and
>> >>>>> consequently abstract.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> c)  What is "perezhivanie" (as a technical term) and what would it
>> >> mean
>> >>>> for
>> >>>>> it to change "dialectically"? Wolff-Michael has set a cat amongst
>> the
>> >>>>> pigeons by defining consciousness itself as "perizhivanie of
>> >>>>> perizhivanie".  On the one hand, this seems to suggest that
>> >>> consciousness
>> >>>>> is an afterthought, and that children cannot have any consciousness
>> >> at
>> >>>> all;
>> >>>>> it also seems (to me) to imply that consciousness is essentially
>> >>>>> individual, the product of reflection upon reflections (and there is
>> >> a
>> >>>>> similar argument being made, rather sloppily, by Michael Luntley in
>> >> the
>> >>>>> current Educational Philosophical and Theory...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Luntley, M. (2017) Forgetski Vygotsky, Educational Philosophy and
>> >>> Theory,
>> >>>>> 49:10, 957-970, DOI: 10.1080/00131857.2016.1248341
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And yet there are two things about Wolff-Michael's formula that do
>> >>> appeal
>> >>>>> to me:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 1. The idea that dialectical development is essentially
>> >> differentiation
>> >>>> and
>> >>>>> not replacement of one form by another. If consciousness is
>> >> essentially
>> >>>>> perizhivanie turned back on itself (like language turned back on
>> >>> itself)
>> >>>> it
>> >>>>> is easy to see how we develop--by unraveling it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2. The idea that consciousness is the "meaning of meaning". Of
>> >> course,
>> >>>>> that's not exactly what he said, but it is what I get when I turn it
>> >>> back
>> >>>>> on itself....
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> David Kellogg
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
>> >>>>> Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
>> >>>>> Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
>> >>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Just a reminder that the article for discussion on neoformation is
>> >>> now
>> >>>>>> open access at the MCA T&F pages.
>> >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1179327
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> There recently were questions in this list concerning adult
>> >>>> development.
>> >>>>>> There was then no mention to this article, which I think was
>> >> already
>> >>>>>> published, but it turns out that it discusses a developmental
>> >>> turn-over
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>>> the professional and everyday life of an adult teacher, using and
>> >>>>>> discussing the concept of neoformation and the associated law of
>> >>>>> transition
>> >>>>>> of quantity into quality. Vygotsky introduced the concept in
>> >> writings
>> >>>>> about
>> >>>>>> child development, and so I assume there may be issues or
>> >> challenges
>> >>>>>> specific to the extension of these notions beyond child
>> >> development.
>> >>> I
>> >>>>>> wonder what others in this list and outside it think, how and
>> >> whether
>> >>>>> those
>> >>>>>> interested in adult development find the contributions present in
>> >> the
>> >>>>>> article relevant/appealing/problematic...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Alfredo
>> >>>>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> >> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
>> >>> edu
>> >>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>> >>>>>> Sent: 07 December 2017 19:33
>> >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4
>> >>>> article
>> >>>>>> for    discussion
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Steemed xmca'ers,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> the year is close to its end and we have yet to discuss a selected
>> >>>>> article
>> >>>>>> from Issue 4. The choice this time is an article written by
>> >>>> Wolff-Michael
>> >>>>>> Roth: "Neoformation: A Dialectical Approach to Developmental
>> >>> Change?".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The article, which is attached and will be made open access for a
>> >>> brief
>> >>>>>> time soon, brings up the concept of "neoformation", a Vygotskian
>> >>> notion
>> >>>>>> that has appeared more than once in xmca but which is not so common
>> >>> in
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>>> literature, despite having quite a methodological import in
>> >>> Vygotsky's
>> >>>>>> writings.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I believe the topic is timely given parallel discussions and
>> >>> critiques
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>>> Vygotsky in xmca and in recent literature. Moreover, the article
>> >>> brings
>> >>>>>> with it a companion, David's Kellogg commentary (which is open
>> >> access
>> >>>>> right
>> >>>>>> now), and a response by Michael. So its a 3 for 1 treat!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The whole issue is published here:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current?nav=tocList
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Michael has kindly agreed to join the conversation in the coming
>> >>> days,
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>>> I encourage you all to have a look at the paper and not to be shy
>> >>>>> bringing
>> >>>>>> in comments and questions. I think this is a unique opportunity we
>> >>> have
>> >>>>> for
>> >>>>>> digging into the different ways in which Vygotsky's legacy may live
>> >>> on
>> >>>> in
>> >>>>>> current and future CHAT and CHAT-related research/literature.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Alfredo
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
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>> >>>>
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
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