[Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and Perezhivanie
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Mon Dec 11 16:23:07 PST 2017
It raises but does not answer the problem how we are to
conceive of "the environment."
Of course, I understand the point being made, which is the
foundation of the ecological point of view, a more developed
approach to the understanding of biology then organism and
cell. These are crucial insights, but isn't "environment" in
this sense a concept relative to the particular organism in
question? Where does the concept of "ecosystem" fit in here
then? I am not trying to "get around" anything and adding
the word "flexible" doesn't help either.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
On 12/12/2017 11:13 AM, Greg Thompson wrote:
> Alfredo,
> Just wondering if you are pointing to something like
> Bateson's "organism-in-the-environment"?
> Here is one line from Bateson's Korzybsky lecture:
> "The unit of survival is a flexible
> organism-in-its-environment."
>
> Here is the full text of the lecture:
> http://www.generalsemantics.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/gsb-37-bateson.pdf
>
> Andy, do you think that thinking
> person-in-their-environment would get around the concern
> that you raise?
>
> -greg
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> Yes, I presumed that that was what was intended -
> i.e., that
> a person manifests different aptitudes in the context of
> different activities. To me, introducing the phrase
> "person-environment units" is not helpful here. "Aptitude"
> is an abstraction from "person" and "activity" but one
> which
> forms a normal part of our perception and cognition of our
> fellow humans, and it probably takes us many years to see
> that a person is not the same person, when they are
> put in a
> different activity context. In "The Problem of the
> Environment," Vygotsky deal with the fact that traumatic
> experiences impact on the development of the entire
> person,
> that is, they will impact on a person's actions in
> different
> environments, beyond that in which the traumatic
> experience
> was survived, and that is something which would be
> ruled out
> by taking "person-environment" as a unit.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
> On 12/12/2017 2:07 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> > Snow is interested in measuring aptitude taking a
> transactional perspective, and talks about
> person-situation units; person-situation units are
> therefore units of Aptitude.
> >
> > Snow then says that "there is therefore no detached
> or abstracted list of qualities of instructional
> treatments that will be equally important for all
> persons or similar list of qualities of persons that
> will be equally important for all treatments. Aptitude
> is the unique coalition of affordances and
> effectivities in particular person-treatment systems"
> (Snow, 1992, p. 25).
> >
> > It makes sense to me, and sounds extremely close to
> what Vygotsky was saying in his lecture on "the
> environment". Obviously, this is not an orthodox
> Marxist take, or else the investigation would take us
> to some unit particular to a given historically
> developed (in this case, person-treatment) system. But
> so neither was VYgotsky's perezhivanie, if only
> because he had not the time to work it further
> (although others like Leont'ev and Sasha had less
> hopes on that possibility). Yet, both ideas seem to me
> quite inspiring and informative as general heuristics
> with regard to how to proceed methodologically: if I
> am to studying intelligence, or aptitude, or
> experience, and I am doing so in terms of a unit that
> does not integrate within itself a transaction between
> person and situation, then I am probably going to have
> troubles to put back together what my analyses has
> dismembered. Also, note that I had written
> "environment," where Snow had written "situation". I
> like the latter better.
> >
> > Snow, R. E. (1992). Aptitude theory: Yesterday,
> today, and tomorrow. Educational Psychologist, 27, 5–32.
> >
> > Alfredo
> > ________________________________________
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
> Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> > Sent: 11 December 2017 15:22
> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and
> Perezhivanie
> >
> > Alfredo, what on Earth does it mean: "'aptitude'
> precisely
> > in terms of person-environment unit."?
> >
> > Surely the term "unit" implies a relation: A is a
> unit of B.
> > Yes? What is the A and B here? I don't doubt that
> there is a
> > perfectly coherent idea behind this, but I find this
> kind of
> > formulation mystifying.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden
> > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm
> <http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/index.htm>
> > On 11/12/2017 7:01 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> >> In a book Wolff-Michael Roth and I wrote last year
> (http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783319398679
> <http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783319398679>), as
> well as in a paper that we are co-writing right now on
> how a group of kids and a teacher get better at
> reading/performing theatre scripts, we seek to examine
> trajectories of development in terms of
> person-environment units—which is how Vygotsky defined
> perezhivanie. In both cases, we find recourse in the
> work of educational psychologist Richard E. Snow, who
> worked towards a definition of the notion 'aptitude'
> precisely in terms of person-environment unit.
> >>
> >> Snow would define aptitudes as "initial states of
> persons that influence later developments, given
> specified conditions... the are ... not merely
> correlates of learning, but rather are propaedeutic to
> (i.e., needed as preparation for) learning in the
> particular situation at hand" (Snow, 1992, p. 6). To
> me, this definition comes very close to what Dewey
> referred to as continuity of experience, the basic
> principle that "every experience enacted and undergone
> modifies the one who acts and undergoes, while this
> modification affects, whether we wish it or not, the
> quality of subsequent experiences" (Dewey in
> Experience and Education). It was Dewey who, together
> with Arthur Bentley and while critiquing empiricist
> approaches, asserted that,
> >> "The word experience should be dropped entirely
> from discussion unless held strictly to a single
> definite use: that, namely, of calling attention to
> the fact that Existence has organism and environment
> as its aspects, and can not be identified with either
> as an independent isolate". With Snow's notion of
> aptitude, then, we are not dealing with a dualistic
> view on intelligence, but with an attempt at a
> monistic approach to what it means becoming skilled, a
> skilled thinking body one may add.
> >>
> >> And so, if I wonder on the relation between
> "experienced thinkers" and "perezhivanie" that Robert
> proposed, I think that an experienced thinker is she
> who finds herself at the verge of an open path upon
> which walking further presents as an immediate
> possibility, for her way of walking has become more
> path-like; or her path has become more walk-able. Say
> path, say math, say dealing with messages at a list
> server.
> >>
> >> Others?
> >> Alfredo
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
> Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu
> <mailto:annalisa@unm.edu>>
> >> Sent: 10 December 2017 18:57
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Experienced Thinkers and
> Perezhivanie
> >>
> >> Coincidentally, I met a man from Belarus last Wed,
> Vera's day, but before I knew it would be.
> >>
> >>
> >> He moved here with his wife and they will soon have
> a child.
> >>
> >>
> >> Once I learned from where he hailed, I said, "Oh
> Vygotsky is from there!"
> >>
> >>
> >> After seeing confusion on his face, I had to remind
> him who he was... the famous Russian psychologist?
> >>
> >>
> >> The light went off and he said he had studied him
> 20 years ago.
> >>
> >>
> >> I told him that I only knew a few Russian words one
> of them being "perezhivanie" and the others "znachenie
> slova." These are words Holbrook Mahn had taught me
> about. Two great gifts.
> >>
> >>
> >> The man from Belarus seemed perplexed about my
> definition of perezhivanie when I'd said I understood
> Vygotsky used it in regards to instruction, that had
> to do with the emotional content of the environment
> for teaching and learning.
> >>
> >>
> >> For him, it meant "frustration". Not as a resulting
> expression, but as a process, or perhaps another way
> to say it, as activity not an end. It was a new word
> meaning for him, and for me. So together we came to
> appreciate why Vygotsky used that word.
> >>
> >>
> >> Additionally, I learned that in our circle on the
> listsev, it has been used as a technical term specific
> to instruction, but perhaps I am wrong. I did not have
> the space to read the recent thread on perezhivanie,
> so I may be speaking out of time with recent developed
> threads and my advanced apology if that is the case.
> >>
> >>
> >> This now makes me think about controversy, such as
> what is happening concerning last year's election, but
> also in the US government these days, and tension
> between the media, the president and the people.
> >>
> >>
> >> I have been watching TURN, which is a TV series
> drama about the American Revolution and the spycraft
> of that time. There was a lot of perezhivanie going on.
> >>
> >>
> >> Perezhivanie seems a very democratic word.
> >>
> >>
> >> So to answer the question, I find the relationship
> between an experienced thinker and perezhivanie is
> timing. A choosing words appropriately.
> >>
> >>
> >> Vera was excellent at that.
> >>
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Annalisa
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of
> Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu
> <mailto:boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2017 1:08 PM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The illuminance that was Vera
> >>
> >> I have a question for the listserve. How would you
> envision
> >> or connect the notion of "experienced thinkers"
> with perezhivanie?
> >> Can anyone share a few thoughts in along this line?
> >> RL
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Annalisa Aguilar
> <annalisa@unm.edu <mailto:annalisa@unm.edu>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello colorful fish of the XMCA pond,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Vera's friendship was a thing nontrivial, as
> ontologies go.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Her academic sensibility was excellent and
> demanding. At the same time,
> >>> her pathos for the world swam deep. We know from
> recent experience that
> >>> although she did not post frequently on the list,
> she dearly valued the
> >>> intellectual exchange that we all enjoy here. It
> nourished and populated
> >>> her mind. To the end, I believe this was the case.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My personal sense of Vera is that few people were
> privy to the world she
> >>> witnessed, through her eyes. I'm one who could not
> perceive this world
> >>> directly, but I could tell that she perceived much
> differently than many of
> >>> us, if only because she had witnessed a wide
> variety of human activity
> >>> during her long, sometimes unyielding life. I was
> kind of standing on a
> >>> hill beneath her vantage point and observing that
> she could see farther
> >>> than I could, without the means to detect what she
> could see vividly. She
> >>> could be silent in her thoughts and those pregnant
> pauses could be so
> >>> meaningful, even powerful. Wide vistas. I mean to
> say that these silent
> >>> pauses were almost words unto themselves. Can a
> linguist be a linguist of
> >>> no words?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Most people who met Vera and had the opportunity
> to spend a little bit of
> >>> time with her, as a student or otherwise, came to
> love her. My opinion is
> >>> if you could not love her, then you were left to
> admire her mind, work
> >>> ethic, and academic accomplishments, no small
> crumbs; Vera was the arete
> >>> that the Old Greeks talked about.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I feel she made a good-faith effort to be
> accepting of others even if she
> >>> disagreed with them. She was willing to seek the
> grey tones in a black and
> >>> white contest. Everyone had a viewpoint and that
> viewpoint was for its very
> >>> existence a valid one, because it was thought by
> someone, arising from a
> >>> personal, perhaps intimate, experience – and this
> demands respect, but was
> >>> not immune to being challenged, which sometimes
> she could do in five words
> >>> or less.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> She did not see disagreement as an assault to her
> being, as some of us can
> >>> sometimes feel in heated debate, frustrating
> disagreements, even chafing
> >>> exasperation. She was patient, nuanced, poised.
> Such rapport during a
> >>> debate of ideas is the academic standard for which
> we all must reach, given
> >>> the world we live in today. It is imperative. I
> feel that way because in
> >>> this process of reaching (to listen, to search, to
> learn), we each stretch
> >>> a little: it's a good kind of yoga that makes each
> of us a better
> >>> contributor to the rest, for the rest, by the rest.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I do not believe I am wrong to say that Vera
> fought for a better world
> >>> through her efforts to understand how to be a
> better teacher and how to
> >>> truly serve the developing minds of children who
> might not have that many
> >>> opportunities available to them. She encouraged
> that temperament in her
> >>> students, and perhaps her colleagues as well. It
> was how to serve in order
> >>> to achieve the best outcomes for everyone, which
> was a sign of her wisdom.
> >>> It is not a struggle singular to Vera, and I
> believe every one of you has a
> >>> dog in that race, to serve today's children and
> tomorrow's graduate
> >>> students, and even one another.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Vera was also a bona fide feminist. A velvet glove
> with a strong grip on
> >>> the realities of gendered relationship. She was
> not afraid to support other
> >>> women and celebrate their accomplishments no
> matter the size. She was not
> >>> afraid to debate men, but I feel safe to say she
> chose her battles when it
> >>> mattered, but she was aware we still have a long
> way to go, baby. She was
> >>> aggrieved over the election and was fearful about
> our future. I wish we
> >>> could have shared better news with her than
> hurricane Harvey, if you get my
> >>> meaning.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I also want to say something about Vera's strength
> if only because it was
> >>> annealed through resilience. I feel she saw
> resilience as necessary for
> >>> survival, and that she saw collaboration as
> resilience expressed between
> >>> two or more people. I think this is why she valued
> collaboration; it is
> >>> vital to know the dynamics of collaboration in
> order to survive all
> >>> challenges that life eventually presents to us. "A
> sterling collaborator
> >>> be," might be on her family crest.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Additionally, Vera studied those whom we call
> geniuses, Vygotsky being one
> >>> of them. She told me and a classmate once during
> office hours that she
> >>> would continue to find new insights in his work
> after each re-reading, so
> >>> even after her own familiarity, we all have that
> to look forward to in
> >>> reading and re-reading his work. If this was the
> case for her, then it will
> >>> be for us.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It occurred to me some years ago how brilliant it
> is to study the
> >>> development of genius. "Notebooks of the Mind" is
> one residual of such
> >>> work. She was onto something there. She was
> looking at what occasions a
> >>> person or a partnership to reach unique levels of
> creative accomplishment;
> >>> not what is pathological about the mind in
> society, but what were its
> >>> virtues? What is a mind that has developed to a
> pinnacle, significantly
> >>> altering a paradigm of study, creative discourse,
> or any human endeavor?
> >>> How does one become distinguished in creative
> work? What was the recipe for
> >>> that? Can it be replicated?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Imagine if we could all be geniuses, what would
> the world be like? Would
> >>> there be enough room for so many of us?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think she would say, "Yes," in that delicate
> Hungarian accent of hers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I suppose any doubt she might have concerning a
> world populated with
> >>> geniuses, precipitated from the problematic
> baggage that the word "genius"
> >>> carries. Consider the fallacy of Rodin's thinker,
> his head on his fist
> >>> where ideas spring eternal from no place in
> particular while enthralled in
> >>> monastic solitude. It is not real, nor is it
> human. Instead, Vera preferred
> >>> to call such folks "experienced thinkers." It is
> so apt a phrase, and so
> >>> elegant. Please consider appropriating that phrase
> in your vocabularies, in
> >>> memory of Vera if you want. Certainly Vera was an
> elegant thinker; her
> >>> speech embodied remarkable reflections that
> revealed the ripples of her
> >>> introspection.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> An image of koi comes to my mind's eye, as they
> swim in a clear pond
> >>> socially, quietly, peacefully.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for allowing me to share my heartfelt
> gratitude for this unique
> >>> human being in this very long post. I want to say
> I will miss her, but I
> >>> feel she is with me still.
> >>>
> >>> I hope you feel that way too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kindest regards,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Annalisa
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Robert Lake Ed.D.
> >> Associate Professor
> >> Social Foundations of Education
> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> >> Georgia Southern University
> >> P. O. Box 8144, Statesboro, GA 30460
> >> Co-editor of *Review of Education, Pedagogy, and
> Cultural Studies,* vol.39,
> >> 2017
> >> Special issue: Maxine Greene and the Pedagogy of
> Social Imagination: An
> >> Intellectual Genealogy.
> >>
> >> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1
> <http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/gred20/39/1>
> >> Webpage:
> https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy
> <https://georgiasouthern.academia.edu/RobertLake*Democracy>
> must be
> >> born anew in every generation, and education is its
> midwife.* John
> >> Dewey-*Democracy
> >> and Education*,1916, p. 139
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> WEBSITE: greg.a.thompson.byu.edu
> <http://greg.a.thompson.byu.edu>
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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