[Xmca-l] Re: Which comes first, context or text?

[Rod Parker-Rees]

Yes indeed but how much is the oneself that one shares with really one's 'own' self, and how much a composite, formed out of previous interactions with others?

Surely this sort of internalised conversation is an example of Vygotsky's 'Higher Mental Functions' - taken in from experience in social interactions.

I didn't know that birds like jam (as we call jelly over here!).

So much to learn from xmca.

All the best,

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: 22 March 2016 16:29
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Which comes first, context or text?

This is very much along the lines of what I was thinking Rod:

*I would say that for you, as an already accomplished participant in a culture of concept systems, the sharing of your oriole experience might well be with a whole host of internalised others. As adults we can share an experience with our friends without needing them to be there ('X and Y would love this').*

Except, i started to think, I can also share with myself, mediated by that same system of concepts. I can stand there and, post facto, think, "Gee, its sure rare to see an oriole" and think about last time I saw one there, or remind myself to get some grape jelly to see if I can entice more to come visit. And I can sure think about telling my wife when I go back into the house and the pleasure she will get from knowing we had a distinguished visitor.

The internal dialogue of consciousness available to an adult is sort of like sharing with oneself over time. Dialogic imagination?

mike




On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 1:23 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> I would say that for you, as an already accomplished participant in a
> culture of concept systems, the sharing of your oriole experience
> might well be with a whole host of internalised others. As adults we
> can share an experience with our friends without needing them to be
> there ('X and Y would love this') - and of course social media allows
> us to share experiences with remote friends, though I am not sure that
> the pleasure of sharing is of quite the same order - maybe it is more
> so for digital natives.
>
> My interest in 'which comes first' is really ontological - I would
> have to argue that for any individual person context always comes
> first because we are born into a pre-existing (albeit fluid) culture.
> I am also inclined to go along with Steven Mithen's contention (e.g.
> in 'The Singing
> Neanderthals') that interactions and relations, first expressed
> through movements and vocalisations, must have preceded any form of language.
>
> An image which I particularly like is of a mountain rising out of
> lush, verdant valleys. Down in the valleys life is abundant, rich and
> complicated but as one ascends the mountain the vegetation gives way to ice and snow.
> The air becomes clear and cold and one can see for miles. Climbing is
> a very direct form of abstraction, lifting oneself out of the muddle
> of context to be able to see further and more clearly. But you can't
> live up there for long. Very young children live in the foothills but
> they don't have to find their own ways up to higher places because
> they are able to see their parents and siblings making the ascent.
>
> For me it is a particular challenge to try to imagine what it is like
> to be a two-year-old, not yet able to lift oneself out of one's
> immediate context to think 'about' things but instead able to think in
> and with the things and people and interactions that make up one's
> environment or context. I would argue that it is easy to forget this 'withness thinking'
> as John Shotter calls it, once thought is marshalled by more or less
> shared concept systems. Even the most abstract of thinkers still have
> to come down the mountain sometimes to engage with other people, to
> eat, wash and sleep and these contexts of lived practice are also
> internalised, like the opinions of our friends, and become part of our
> own relationships with our contexts.
>
> All the best,
>
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: 22 March 2016 00:27
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Which comes first, context or text?
>
> Dear Colleagues.
>
> Mike:
>
> I did not intend to offer the oriole example as an example of
> foreground and background, David. Rather, what I was after was the
> process of an event becoming a semantic event. I was under the
> influence of the discussion of fon/phonem and Rod's questions about which comes first.
>
>
>
> My example seems to fit Rod's specifies the process as I experienced
> it pretty well. An initial flash of unexpected light for which there
> is no name that becomes lexified as "the male oriole!"  But the issue
> of sharing is a little problematic. Standing in the backyard, not
> talking aloud, with whom was I sharing an event being woven into a
> semantic event? The semantic event happened, but the sharing?
>
>
>
> It seems important that Tomsello's monumental corpus of work should
> find its way into this discussion. And Nelson's too.
>
>
>
> Anyway, thanks to all for bringing round this topic. That it should
> occur mutually relevant to community psychology and to whatever this
> list represents, seems non-accidental.
>
>
>
> mike
>
>
>
> PS- On the question of context and figure/ground, I will send around
> three uses of the metaphor of context as rope. Their variety of
> origins/applications of the metaphor strike me as worth thinking about
> and speak to David's characterization of my views.
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > This is helpful, David but I am not sure that your cline, as I
> > understand it, fully recognises the asymmetries of texts framed in
> > systems of
> concepts
> > and texts framed in 'real' things and interactions. For the infant
> > there
> is
> > no significant distinction between the attention and activity and
> > the knowledge which subtends them. Concepts, categories and words
> > allow multiple instances to be woven into nameable ideas which can
> > exist
> outside
> > any particular 'real' context and can therefore be shared but
> > whether we think lived experience is reduced or elevated to
> > shareable knowledge,
> that
> > knowledge can only be understood if it is given colour and vitality
> > by 'spontaneous concepts'. So the wordy, abstractable text depends
> > on every hearer/reader/participant's ability to connect shared
> > branches with
> private
> > roots - breathing meaning into it but when meaning is shared
> > directly, in shared attention, for example, it does not depend on participants'
> ability
> > to make connections with the branches of a system of concepts. It
> > may be possible to put this sort of 'face to face' meaning sharing
> > into words (though inevitably this will involve some reduction or
> > elevation) but
> this
> > translation is not a necessary part of the experience of the text.
> >
> > I have a feeling that weather is already half way reduced/elevated,
> > a generalisation which can describe an experience shared by many,
> > even if
> it
> > has not attained the level of generalisation required for thinking
> > about climate. Shared attention may be something more contained - a
> > flash of lightning, a gust of wind or a flurry of snow on the face of that beast!
> >
> > It seems to me that what is required for an event to be woven into a
> > semantic event is just that its noticing is shared. When infants
> 'discover'
> > that a previously undifferentiated 'Great We' can be differentiated
> > into 'my attention' AND 'your attention' they can delight in the
> > experience of 'locking on' which is felt when attention is shared. I
> > am still very uncertain about the boundary beyond which an event can
> > be thought of as semantic. I suspect that the felt familiarity of a
> > situation which has
> been
> > shared before (like Andy's book sharing but not necessarily with
> > anything as texty as a book) may be enough to produce a sense of
> > 'Ah, I know what
> to
> > expect here' which might convert an experience into a kind of
> > experience, elevating it (or reducing it) out of the weather of context.
> >
> > It is difficult to form uncertain ideas into texts which stand a
> > chance
> of
> > sharing meaning with people I have never even met but grappling with
> these
> > posts does sometimes bring me up with a flash of connection (or what
> feels
> > to me like connection!). I did like the footprints in the snow.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Rod
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg
> > Sent: 21 March 2016 20:57
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Which comes first, context or text?
> >
> > Rod:
> >
> > I think the word "context" will work just fine. We just have to see
> > a cline of instantiation, from the context of culture (the speech
> > community as a whole, seen as the sum total of all the persons who
> > speak a
> language)
> > and the context of situation (the elements of the context of culture
> > and the elements of a material situational setting which are
> > selected to be semanticized in a given exchange). This cline of
> > instantiation between context of culture and context of situation is
> > exactly what Malinowski describes in the long addendum he appended to "The Meaning of Meaning"
> > in Ogden and Richards, except that Malinowski is not so clear about
> > distinguishing between a material situational setting and a context
> > of situation.
> >
> > Halliday (who was a big influence on Stephen P. Witte) describes the
> > relationship between context of culture and context of situation as
> > being like weather and climate: two different perspectives brought
> > about by two different timescales on one and the same phenomenon.
> > The difference in timescale does mean that in a context of culture
> > certain phenomena which
> I
> > will call cultural and social are foregrounded and other phenomena
> > which
> I
> > will call interpersonal and psychological are backgrounded, while in
> > a context of situation, we find things the other way around: the
> > interpersonal and psychological is made explicit and thus tends to
> > get foregrounded while the cultural and social are left implicit and
> therefore
> > backgrounded. This is not that different from climate and
> > weather: with climate, what is decisive is the angle of the sun and
> > the extent to which the earth retains solar radiation and what is
> > accidental
> is
> > the patterns of air movement, while with weather what is decisive is
> > the pattern of air movement and the incidence of solar radiation
> > is...well, incidental.
> >
> > Mike likes to say that foreground and background "create each other"
> > I think that's one reason he is so taken with his orioles and with
> > McDermott's spirals/concentric circles. I am less taken with these:
> > taken too far, they set my dialectics against my materialism. To me
> > the reason why the infant must give up proto-speech and learn mother
> > tongue as a SECOND language is because in the long run climate
> > determines weather rather than the other way around; in a language,
> > the context of culture
> is
> > ultimately mightier than the context of situation even though (and
> > even precisely because) the context of culture is really nothing
> > more than the sum total of contexts of situations.
> >
> > But let us apply Mike's principle here. If context and text really
> > do create each other (and if they evolve, as you and Katherine
> > Nelson and
> also
> > Vygotsky describe, out of an undifferentiated joint attention) then
> > we should be able to find a counterpart to text at one end of the
> > cline of instantiation as easily as we do at the other.
> >
> > So we do. The counterpart to a context of situation is, of course, a
> text,
> > so long as we see text as a semantic event and not simply the
> > recording thereof in paper and ink. Text is what people like to call
> > discourse, but such is the conservatism of academics we tend to
> > associate text with writing rather than with thinking and with
> > speech. If that were text, though, infants would have to wait for
> > half a decade for it, and they don't. Text is semantic; we have text
> > wherever we have the analysis of a setting into a context and the
> > sharing of that analysis through communication. Text is the beast
> > itself and not simply its footprints in the snow.
> >
> > And the counterpart to a context of culture? It's just the sum total
> > of everything that a speech community writes, reads, speaks and understands:
> > it's the sum total of text produced in a language. But my point was
> > that it's text, or anyway the socio/cultural equivalent of text (and
> > in some cases, e.g. the Torah or the Confucian Classics, it's
> > literally reducible to a handful of written texts). It's not just
> > "behaviour", or "activity", or "production".
> >
> > It's not behaviour because it's more about knowing than doing. It's
> > not activity because it's not defined by single goals. And it's not
> production
> > because there is no exchanging of labor and capital, no production
> > of commodities, no use or exchange value, just "value" tout court.
> > But it's value to which every infant is invited to partake, and in
> > at least one
> way
> > the infant's understanding of what is going on with the context of
> culture
> > is more accurate than ours. Infants, unlike adults, appear to assume
> > that since attention and even activity is shared, the knowledge
> > which subtends them must be shared as well.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Macquarie University
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 8:01 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > I have opened a new strand to avoid distracting from the
> > > discussion of the Tharp and O'Donnell article.
> > >
> > > If we go back to the roots of text in weaving it makes sense that,
> > > in the wider sense to which you allude, text is always between
> > > people. It is when people connect their interests in some way and
> > > share meanings that stuff and events get woven into text. Even if
> > > you hadn't said anything when you presented the book to the 9
> > > month old baby, the second presentation would be recognised as a
> > > social event - 'Oh yes, this thing that we do' and this feeling of
> > > shared experience does seem to play an important part in infants'
> > > assisted ability to weave public, cultural meanings into their private, personal experiences.
> > >
> > > As Vygotsky noted, infants develop within an already woven context
> > > of culture so what happens to and around them is pre-patterned and
> > > because humans are oddly interested in what their infants are
> > > interested in, interactions serve to model particular weaving
> > > patterns and styles. Studies by Tomasello, Moll and colleagues
> > > (discussed in
> > Moll, H. and Meltzoff, A.
> > > (2011) Joint Attention as the fundamental basis of understanding
> > > perspectives. In A. Seemann (ed.) Joint Attention: new
> > > developments in psychology, philosophy of mind, and social
> > > neuroscience. Cambridge,
> > > MA: MIT Press, 393-413) show that 12 month old infants appear to
> > > 'remember' their interactions with a researcher and selected toys
> > > but only if they have played with the toys together - watching the
> > > researcher play with the toys, or playing with them while the
> > > researcher watches, does not provide enough embodied, enactive,
> > > interactive experience to shape future interactions (and the
> > > infant's knowledge is 'context specific' - not extended to other
> > > researchers or
> > other toys).
> > >
> > > So there is a naming problem here. Is there, as you say, no
> > > context without specific, personally experienced and woven text?
> > > Or is there a pre-existing context which, as yet unbeknown to the
> > > weaver, influences and guides the texts which come to be formed?
> > > Infants are surrounded by a cultural context which is richly and
> > > densely shaped by the concept systems which have evolved out of
> > > the patterns in people's behaviour. What their caregivers do with,
> > > to and around them is shaped both by what those caregivers have
> > > seen other people do and by a long history of people hearing and
> > > reading about what other people do and have done. I would like to
> > > be able to use context to refer to the culturally patterned
> > > environment in which infants are helped to notice particular kinds
> > > of patterns but you want the word (if I have understood correctly
> > > - and what are the chances?) to refer to a personal frame of
> > > reference. This is helpful for me, highlighting the way the 'same'
> > > cultural environment can be woven into different contexts by
> > > different weavers, but that leaves me needing another word for the
> > > co-woven, negotiated environment which enables infants to join in
> > > before they have sorted out or internalised the concept systems
> > > which shape it. And which allows someone entering a new job or a
> > > new role to sidle in from peripheral participation to feeling they
> > > belong
> at
> > the core of the group.
> > >
> > > If you haven't already read Katherine Nelson's 'Young Minds in
> > > Social
> > > Worlds: experience, meaning and memory' (Harvard 2007) I would
> > > strongly recommend this - she develops a strongly Vygotskyan
> > > argument that infant development has to be understood in terms of
> > > interwoven processes of making sense and making relationships -
> > > drawing together a huge amount of research on early communication and meaning sharing.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > >
> > > Rod
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg
> > > Sent: 20 March 2016 20:31
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion
> > >
> > > Rod:
> > >
> > > Actually, that's just the kind of text I'm working with right now.
> > > Here's the plan. Every week, we give a nine month old baby a book.
> > > We ask four questions in two languages (because the baby has one
> > > Korean speaking parent and one English speaking one):
> > >
> > > a) English: What's this?
> > > b) English: Is it a ...?
> > > c) Yigot mueo ya? (What's this?)
> > > d) ... yi ya?   (Is it a ...?)
> > >
> > > Sometimes we mix up the order. This goes on every week for the
> > > next three years, as the child first figures out that a book is not edible.
> > > That it contains pictures. That that the pictures are not just
> > > colors but meant to be signs. That beneath the pictures there are letters.
> > > That the letters are not just drawings but are meant to be symbols.
> > > That the symbols encode settings, characters, and problems. That
> > > the problems can only be solved by means of dialogue, etc.
> > >
> > > Now, the first time I tried this, the child simply could not
> > > concentrate on the object for any length of time. But the SECOND
> > > time I did it, the child literally could not look away from it!
> > > You could see that although the child had no idea what was being
> > > said, the child was might just be starting to think some
> > > proto-language equivalent of "What's this?" "Is it a...?" "Yi got
> > > mu eo ya?" "Chaek yi ya?" And after a minute or so, the child
> > > looked up, as if to see whether the large person making so much
> > > noise might be thinking something along
> > those lines too.
> > >
> > > So maybe THAT's text! And as you can see it doesn't matter at all
> > > whether the text realizes concepts or feelings or just
> > > perceptions, the underlying semiotic mechanism is pretty much the
> > > same. But it seems that there's only text when something has been
> > > selected from the material setting by some human consciousness or
> > > consciousnesses for semiotic transformation; there's only text
> > > when there some kind of "metaphor" (gestural, phonological,
> > > lexicogrammatical) for context. It seems that it's precisely THIS
> > > act of selection which transforms a material setting into a
> > > context, and it's premature to speak of context before that
> > > happens. So for example I wouldn't use the term context for the
> > > first week of work, only for the second.
> > >
> > > I think it's legitimate to talk about "social context" and
> > > "cultural context", because I believe that context, like text,
> > > exists on a cline of instantiation. At one end, we have the
> > > relationship between a context of situation (Malinowski) and a
> > > text (Halliday). That's the end I'm at right now. At the other, we
> > > have the relationship between a context of culture (again,
> > > Malinowski) and...and a whole language system (again, Halliday). I
> > > gather that's the end at which the KEEP and the Community
> > > Development projects in Micronesia and the Delinquency Research plans are working. But I don't see how "activity"
> > > or "behaviour" can ever realize context, unless it is semiotic
> > > activity and semiotic behaviour, in which case we might as well
> > > start
> > looking around for text. That's where the garlic and ginger is.
> > >
> > > (Rod--I'm new at this stuff: watching infants crack the whole
> > > problem of anthropogenesis single-handed, I mean. That's how
> > > exciting it is, and that's about how baffling it is too. I know you are an old hand.
> > > Can you give me any tips on what to read and advice about what to
> > > do
> > > next?)
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Macquarie University
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I was driven to respond to David's earlier comments about
> > > > context since my own understanding of this term is in the
> > > > context of trying to understand how preverbal children make
> > > > sense (meanings framed by social and physical contexts more than
> > > > by systems of concepts). Here it is difficult to separate a text
> > > > out of the context, an
> 'individual'
> > > > thought process apart from the interactions in which it can occur.
> > > >
> > > > It strikes me that Andy's point about the contexts in which
> > > > concepts have their meanings is particularly relevant here. The
> > > > intersubjectivity available to a caregiver-child dyad or within
> > > > a family is of a different order to that available between
> > > > otherwise unconnected speakers of the 'same' language. Where one
> > > > is rooted in a history of shared experiences in common contexts
> > > > the other is rooted in a history of more or less abstracted
> > > > ideas (concepts) which refer to
> > > experiences but 'from above'
> > > > rather than 'from within'. Knowing what someone else means is
> > > > never completely achievable and I think the positive consequence
> > > > of this is that intersubjectivity has to be understood as a
> > > > process, a conversation rather than an answer. 'Feeling' with
> > > > other people is not an achieved end but a means towards sharing
> > > > understanding (I like the idea that the word understanding is misunderstood - 'under'
> > > > deriving from the same root as 'inter' and meaning 'among'
> > > > rather
> than
> > 'below'
> > > > - to understand something is to stand IN it).
> > > >
> > > > We can know ABOUT other cultures through reading about them or
> > > > watching films but how we know cultures in which we have stood
> > > > is importantly different - I think. Meeting other people, or
> > > > meeting with them, can enrich our personal understanding by
> > > > exposing us to different ways of thinking but I think we have to
> > > > recognise that thinking ABOUT ways of interacting has to be
> > > > understood as a multi-layered thing, ranging from the thickest
> > > > knowing of our lived and co-lived experiences to the ethereal
> > > > abstractions of philosophical
> > > thought-play.
> > > >
> > > > So sharing concepts out of context is doable but not achievable.
> > > >
> > > > All the best,
> > > >
> > > > Rod
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > > > Sent: 20 March 2016 10:34
> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for Discussion
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if the issue is having common interests, Cliff.
> > > > I think it's very productive, even necessary, that each little
> > > > bunch of us has different concerns and shines light on different
> > > > aspects of
> > > human life.
> > > > But what we really need is shared concepts, through which we can
> > > > understand each other and collaborate. So it is good news that
> > > > CC has appropriated zone of proximal development, activity
> > > > setting, shared activity and the law of genetic development.
> > > > I think we need to be very conscious of the dangers inherent in
> > > > appropriating expressions like these though. You pointed out
> > > > that in the early days of CC, "'cultural psychology' was
> > > > generally practiced as 'cross-cultural', largely as comparison
> > > > studies", but everything I read in your paper tends to suggest
> > > > "culture" is still understood and used in just this sense.
> > > > Consequently it is very easy to miss the meaning attached to
> > > > "culture" in CHAT, which, after all, originated in pretty much a
> > > > mono-cultural situation. One word can index different concepts.
> > > > Achieving interdisciplinarity is only achieved by means of
> > > > shared concepts. But on the other hand, since the content of a
> > > > concept is ultimately the larger system of practices to which it
> > > > is indigenous, it seems almost as if a concept can only be
> > > > shared when the broader context of its use is already
> > assimilated.
> > > > Along these lines, it was a little while before I realised that
> > > > you were using the word "intersubjectivity" with quite a
> > > > different meaning than I would. It seems to denote empathy.
> > > > "Intersubjectivity involves co-actors feeling the same emotions
> > > > and values in the same situations," and I don't even know it means to "feel values."
> > > > Connected with this the description of joint action, turned out
> > > > to be in sharp contrast to my conception of it. As I see it,
> > > > collaboration (my preferred term, rather than "joint
> > > > action") necessarily entails both moments of conflict as well as
> > > > cooperation. Harmony and bliss are great things, but I think
> > > > they are rather cheaply purchased simply by everyone marching in step.
> > > > I suspect that these two examples of shared words indicating
> > > > different concepts are connected to the hope of mutual
> > > > appropriation by means of having a "center of commonality."
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 20/03/2016 12:28 PM, Cliff
> > > > O'Donnell wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Alfredo. Roland and I
> > > > > thought that although CC and CHAT have many common interests,
> > > > > most folks in each appeared to be unaware of the other
> > > > > (judging by the infrequency of common citations). As described
> > > > > in our article, we and several of our colleagues have been
> > > > > influenced by CHAT and have used CHAT concepts in our research and intervention programs.
> > > > > As for influence in the opposite direction, perhaps the KEEP
> > > > > project, Seymour Sarason's work, and some of Maynard's work
> > > > > with
> > > Greenfield.
> > > > > Also Kurt Lewin is a source common to both CC and CHAT. I too
> > > > > would be interested to hear of additional influence in the
> > > > > opposite
> > > direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are correct that Delta Theory builds on psychosocial
> > > > > systems with Vygotsky as an important source. Delta Theory
> > > > > boldly attempts to be a universal theory of how change occurs
> > > > > using Delta as the symbol for change.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm pleased that you found the discussion of cognitive
> > > > > science, psycho-neurology, and a potential center of
> > > > > commonality in psychology of interest! That is the goal of the
> > > > > article, i.e., to show how the commonality of CC and CHAT have
> > > > > the potential to form that commonality with developmental,
> > > > > educational, cognitive, and
> > > neuro-psychology.
> > > > > Hopefully this discussion format will facilitate interest in
> > > > > the process.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cliff
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 19, 2016, at 6:17 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Thanks Cliff and Mike for sharing this interesting article. I
> > > > >> was not familiar to cultural community psychology and this
> > > > >> and the other papers in the symposium do a great job
> > > > >> introducing and concisely describing the field, and how it
> > > > >> evolved from community to cultural community psychology.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> As I was reading, I wondered how much the influence of CHAT
> > > > >> literature had influenced the development of community
> > > > >> psychology itself from the start. As I progressed in my
> > > > >> reading, I then found clear references to these influences,
> > > > >> which even meant the delay of the publishing of Roland's
> > > > >> work, I assume, due to the important input that Vygotsky's
> > > > >> publications meant for the project. But then I wondered on
> > > > >> what had been other sources. What were other foundational
> > > > >> influences to the field? I'd be interested to know about them
> > > > >> in part because, while the paper discusses many examples in
> > > > >> which CHAT gives input to CC, I would like to know more about
> > > > >> the (possible) inputs in the other
> > direction.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Also, I found interesting the mention of a new center of
> > > > >> commonality in psychology in general. I was glad to see,
> > > > >> however brief, mentions to research in cognitive science and
> > > > >> psycho-neurology. In your paper, Delta theory is mentioned as
> > > > >> a move forward towards integration. In the case of CHAT, this
> > > > >> was pursued by means of developing a scientific discipline
> > > > >> based on dialectical materialism and the sociogenetic method.
> > > > >> Delta theory (I just had a very brief first
> > > > >> contact) seems to build upon the notion of psychosocial systems.
> > > > >> This sounds very much in line with Vygotsky, who surely is a
> > > > >> central source. Again, here I would love to hear what other
> > > > >> insights/sources are involved that may provide new insights
> > > > >> to those more familiar to CHAT but not so much with CC and
> > > > >> Delta
> > theory.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >> Alfredo
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ________________________________________
> > > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > >> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of mike cole
> > > > >> <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > > >> Sent: 18 March 2016 02:39
> > > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l]  Article for Discussion
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Dear XCMA-er-o-philes-
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> We thought it appropriate to put up for discussion the paper
> > > > >> by Roland Tharp and Cliff  O'Donnell from the most recent
> > > > >> issue of
> MCA.
> > > > >> Roland wanted to stimulate discussion among what he and Cliff
> > > > >> saw as people with a strong family resemblance. He passed
> > > > >> away before this part of the discussion could take place.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Roland and Cliff argue for the mutual relevance of Cultural
> > > > >> Community Psychology and Vygotskian inspired research in the
> > > > >> approach referred to often in these pages as CHAT, not only
> > > > >> because it is an acronym for cultural-historical activity
> > > > >> theory, but because we have a tradition of chatting here
> > > > >> about the ideas in papers that sample our different interests.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In this case, Cliff is intending to send this message and an
> > > > >> invitation to people from Community Psychology to join in.
> > > > >> May it be celebratory of Roland's long life seeking to
> > > > >> promote growth enhancing communication.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> get your copy at
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Enjoy, and of course, send along to others you think might be
> > > > >> interested.
> > > > >> Its legal, free, above board, and, hopefully, interesting!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science
> > > > >> with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
> > > > >
> > > > > Clifford R. O'Donnell, Ph.D.
> > > > > Professor Emeritus
> > > > > Past-President, Society for Community Research and Action (APA
> > > > > Division 27)
> > > > >
> > > > > University of Hawai'i
> > > > > Department of Psychology
> > > > > 2530 Dole Street
> > > > > Honolulu, HI 96822
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
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It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
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