[Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth

[mike cole]

Very interesting, Larry. So some ideas are tracking here.

Concerning:

He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is
the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you.

And not from a Vygotskian perspective? Do Bakhtin and Voloshinov part ways
here?
I am pre-occupied with a series of other tasks and cannot turn back to
these texts
at present but am reading the discussion with a lot of interest and doing
my best to keep up.
mike

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work.
>
> I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the
> Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda
> Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality]
> In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense" comparing
> and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas.
> It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while Bahktin
> references "smysl" as "themes".
>
> I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" .
>
> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is
> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you.
>
> A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most
> important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through social
> experience ... realized through various significations ....
> Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet to
> come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In *this
> sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of creativity...
> Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings
> within the "zone"*.  The "place" where human beings get together to create
> new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of
> activities they take part in throughout their lives.
>
> I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act of
> imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for this
> "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie and
> smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a zone
> of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form].
> As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of  oscillating sense and
> meaning.
>
> If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send.  It is only
> one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging with
> the power of becoming within zones.
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > Larry.
> >
> > Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we
> > learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra
> Mukerji,
> > has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the
> > gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to
> imagine
> > Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome.  This idea seems to capture of a lot
> > what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field,
> > ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Greg,
> > > I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming
> > > persons".
> > >
> > > So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also
> multiple
> > > standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological
> > imperialism??
> > >
> > > I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that
> are
> > > exploring "situated care" and "situated agency".  This involves ethical
> > > questions of "care"  to be explored and developed within novel
> formations
> > > [places].  I would point out that many of these places are using
> notions
> > > such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely
> > > objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest
> they
> > > are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions"
> that
> > > abide within these formative "places" [or spaces]
> > >
> > > Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and ask
> > > questions of who decides, about what, in which situations.
> > >
> > > The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we form
> > > hybrid cultural forms.
> > > Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible
> > > places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an instantiation
> > of
> > > the possible]  is realizing and articulating "our culture".  [and
> making
> > > "real"]
> > >
> > > Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? Is
> my
> > > question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to
> > breath
> > > and come "to life"??
> > >
> > > Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this
> "place".
> > >
> > > How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility of
> > > bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"??  Not standards but a
> > > different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always
> situated,
> > > never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility.
> > >
> > > Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's
> > > ideological imperialism.
> > > Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions].
> > De-constructing
> > > the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid forms
> > > neither purely subjective nor purely objective.  Third spaces.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson <
> > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on
> > that
> > > > other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across
> > socio-cultural
> > > > contexts, or as Nissen says:
> > > >
> > > > " the question whether and how standards of educational practice can
> be
> > > > transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural distances
> > is
> > > > far from straightforward
> > > > ​ ​
> > > > and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish experience, I
> > was
> > > > impelled to reconsider it."
> > > >
> > > > I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's
> > issues
> > > of
> > > > "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the "forming
> of
> > > > persons".
> > > >
> > > > That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological imperialism?
> > > >
> > > > I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather
> > > approaches
> > > > a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from one
> > > > cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples
> everywhere
> > > > care very much about "forming persons".
> > > >
> > > > No?
> > > >
> > > > -greg
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in
> > > movement
> > > > > and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted
> > before
> > > as
> > > > > part of the discussion. Apologies.
> > > > > mike
> > > > > PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I
> think.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with
> an
> > > > object
> > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
> object
> > that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> >
>



-- 
It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object
that creates history. Ernst Boesch.