[Xmca-l] Re: units of analysis?

[Rod Parker-Rees]

Which is  a useful reminder that the same is true of any and every word, but to differing degrees. We may feel that we are all operating with the same meaning (znachenie) when we use a word in a context like this discussion but each of us 'means' something different by it because we each have our own  sense (smysl) of its significance (which includes our awareness of how it is fought over, what sort of people can be expected to use it more or less as we do,  how it may annoy or mislead some people, etc.). To say we speak the 'same' language can only ever be an approximation. As I see it, this is why meaning must be negotiated in discussion rather than asserted by proclamation - we get closer to understanding how a particular person uses particular words when we get to know that person as a person and that involves much more than just batting words to and fro!

Rod
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Patrick Jaki [patrick.jaki@gmail.com]
Sent: 13 October 2014 12:00
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: units of analysis?

Does perezhivanie have a direct equivalent translation in English?  Is this
not part of the problem that a word in its original language, in this case
Russian, cannot be translated directly into other languages, which adds
onto our problem of making sense and meaning of it.

On 13 October 2014 10:57, Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
wrote:

> Andy,
>
> I agree that it's an example and illustration that cannot capture
> everything.
>
> But I think you've got the chemistry wrong! If I remember my college
> chemistry correctly, H2O isn't a combination of H+ and OH-, because that
> would imply an asymmetry that does not in fact exist. Oxygen is strongly
> electronegative, meaning it draws electrons from the hydrogen atoms,
> leading to a bond between an O+ ion and two H- ions.  This has the
> consequence that the water molecule a dipole, which leads to hydrogen
> bonding between water molecules, the result of which is that water is a
> liquid at room temperature while other hydrides formed from elements that
> are close to oxygen in the periodic table are gases.
>
> So, yes, there are tensions and contradictions in the *formation* of
> water. My point was that once formed, there are no contradictions driving
> further development. That's not entirely true; water does partially
> dissociate, into H3O+ and OH-. This means that a body of water is actually
> in constant change, creating and breaking hydrogen bonds, and dissociating
> and reassociating. A dynamic stasis, if you like. But it doesn't develop
> further.
>
> Martin
>
> On Oct 12, 2014, at 11:51 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > Martin, I think it is nothing more than the limitations of a metaphor -
> it can only illustrate one aspect of the target. In this case it is simply
> saying that a quantity of water is just thousands H2O molecules, and
> nothing else. No addition is required to manifest all the properties of
> water.
> >
> > You would have to be a chemist to know the forces that bind the H and OH
> together and how they can be separated, H containing a positive charge and
> OH containing a negative charge - a good old positive/negative
> contradiction. All chemicals with the H ion are acids and all chemicals
> with the OH ion are alkali, but water is both acid and base and therefore
> neither. *If you want* the water molecule is a tangle of contradictions and
> transformations, along with Carbon, the foundation of the chemistry of
> life. :)
> > Andy
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >
> >
> > Martin John Packer wrote:
> >> Good question, Mike!  What you're pointing out is that LSV's own
> example doesn't quite do justice to his analysis in T&L.  Water is not a
> dynamic system: once hydrogen bonds with oxygen the process stops: water is
> a stable molecule. He should have picked an example in which an internal
> tension or clash of some kind provides a continual motor for change.
> >>
> >> In somewhat the same way, I'm trying to figure out how a triangle is
> dynamic. It's one of the most stable geometric shapes.  :)
> >>
> >> Martin
> >> On Oct 12, 2014, at 10:26 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Martin. What is the contradiction between hydrogen and oxygen such
> that two
> >>> atoms of hydrogen combined with one atom of oxygen give rise to water
> with
> >>> its distinctive qualities? Knowing that should help people to rise to
> the
> >>> concrete for their own cases.
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Martin John Packer <
> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
> >>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>      Well, if it works for you, Helena..!  :)
> >>>>
> >>>> Clearly Yrjo does claim that the triangle represents a dynamic system
> with
> >>>> contradictions. I'm still reading the chapter that Mike linked to,
> and I
> >>>> already some questions. But I'll wait until I read it all before
> posting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Martin
> >>>>
> >>>> On Oct 12, 2014, at 6:10 PM, Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On the contrary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To me, that very affordance is one of the great things about activity
> >>>>>
> >>>> theory and the activity system as a unit of analysis. A very simple
> example
> >>>> is that if you change something in the norms/customs/laws/history
> corner of
> >>>> the triangle (like win a court case that gives you a stronger footing
> in
> >>>> bargaining), then your tools also change. Another: if by bringing new
> >>>> members into the community (the base of the triangle) out of which
> division
> >>>> of labor raises the subjects, you may find yourself with a leadership
> team
> >>>> that is not all white, or not all primarily English-speaking, which
> in turn
> >>>> will change what tools/resources you have and may, if you're lucky and
> >>>> quick, change your history.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Helena Worthen
> >>>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Oct 12, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Martin John Packer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> And what's neat about this way of thinking is that it implies that,
> >>>>>>
> >>>> once one understands the relationships among the components, one can
> bring
> >>>> about changes in one component in the totality by acting on *another*
> >>>> component of the totality.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> The activity system triangle does not suggest to me this type of
> >>>>>>
> >>>> relationship among components. Instead, it seems to represent
> elements that
> >>>> are only accidentally brought together.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 12, 2014, at 2:43 PM, Martin John Packer <
> >>>>>>
> >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Seems to me the problem in many research projects is that the
> question
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> is not formulated in an appropriate way. LSV was exploring a method of
> >>>> analysis that seeks to understand the relationship among components
> in a
> >>>> complex totality. Not the causal influence of one factor on another,
> which
> >>>> is often how students frame their research interest. And this means
> that
> >>>> the unit of analysis has to represent, exemplify, this relationship.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Helena Worthen <
> helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> As someone who uses the concept of "unit of analysis" in a very
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> down-to-earth, quick and dirty, applied way to shape collective
> responses
> >>>> to a crisis in a labor and employment relationships (like, when a rule
> >>>> changes creates difficulties for workers), I would agree with Andy:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The other thing is that discovering a unit of analysis is an
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> *insight*. It
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> is not something that can be achieved by following a template,
> it is
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> the
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> breakthrough in your research into some problem, the leap. It
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> usually comes
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> *after* you've collected all the data for your research using
> some
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> other
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> unit of analysis.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> First comes the story, the details, the experiences. The question
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> lying behind the telling of the stories is, "What are we going to
> do?" The
> >>>> unit of analysis gets defined by the purpose we are trying to
> accomplish.
> >>>> Are we trying to get the employer to back off temporarily? Are we
> trying
> >>>> get the rule changed? Example:  In a big hospital system in Chicago,
> >>>> clerical workers were no longer allowed to leave an "I'm going to be
> late
> >>>> to work today" or "I have to stay home with my sick kid today and
> will miss
> >>>> work" message on the answering machines of their supervisors. We're
> talking
> >>>> about a workforce with hundreds of employees, most of them middle aged
> >>>> minority women -- with grandchildren and extended families to be
> >>>> responsible for.  Not being allowed to leave a message on a machine,
> but
> >>>> being required to actually speak to a supervisor in person who would
> then
> >>>> keep a record of the call, was a problem because supervisors were
> often
> >>>> away from their desks and the whole phone system was unreliable.
> Also, a
> >>>> lot of workers didn't have cell phones at the time this was happening
> >>>> (2004) and pay phones are few and far between, so if someone it out
> buying
> >>>> more asthma inhalers for a grandkid, making a phone call is not easy.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> So, exactly what is the purpose that we're trying to accomplish,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> here?  To repeal the rule? To fix the phone system?  To educate
> members of
> >>>> the union and other others about how to respond collectively to
> something
> >>>> that only affects some of them? To make a profound change in society
> so
> >>>> that middle-aged women are not the primary caretakers of an extended
> >>>> family?  Pick one. Once you've picked one (hopefully, one that you can
> >>>> carry out) you can define the unit of analysis and then reviewing the
> whole
> >>>> Engestrom triangle and evaluating your strategy becomes, as Andy
> says,  a
> >>>> matter of solving puzzles.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> From the employer point of view, asking workers to actually
> speak to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> a live supervisor makes a certain sense. That's why we talk about
> activity
> >>>> system(s), not just one activity system. But they are often in
> conflict
> >>>> with each other, which adds to the drama.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> Is the data in your study being gathered with some purpose in
> mind?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>> Is the purpose the purpose of the children, the purpose of the class,
> or
> >>>> the purpose of the PhdD program?  To me, what would be most
> interesting
> >>>> would be a comparison between the unit of analysis (purposes of
> children)
> >>>> and unit of analysis (purpose of classroom). I'll bet they're not
> identical.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>> Helena
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Helena Worthen
> >>>>>>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2014, at 10:20 AM, Katerina Plakitsi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This problem of the ' unit of analysis' is my concern too. I
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> supervise
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> three PHD students on Science Education in a CHAT context. Two of
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> them on
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> early childhood science education and one on primary science.
> They
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> have
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> collected log files, children discourses consisted of
> >>>>>>>>> scientific justifications, accepted rules, and forms of division
> of
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> labor.
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> They have collected children narratives, and drawings. When they
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> decided to
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> analyze their data they follow different paths into CHAT context
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> mainly
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> modeling them using Engestrom's triangle. They still doubt about
> the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> " unit
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> of analysis".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Στις Κυριακή, 12 Οκτωβρίου 2014, ο χρήστης Andy Blunden <
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>> ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>> έγραψε:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Katie, picking up on your concern about units of analysis, it
> was
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> one of
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the points I mentioned in my "report" from ISCAR, that this
> concept
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> was
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> almost lost to us. A phrase I heard a lot, and which was new for
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> me, was
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "unit to be analysed." If anyone knows the origin of this
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> expression, I'd
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> be interested in hearing. It seemed to me that what it referred
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> was a
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "closed system" for analysis, that is, abandoning CHAT
> methodology
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> whilst
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> keeping the word. If I am mistaken about this, please let me
> know.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that discovering a unit of analysis is an
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> *insight*. It
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> is not something that can be achieved by following a template,
> it
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> is the
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> breakthrough in your research into some problem, the leap. It
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> usually comes
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> *after* you've collected all the data for your research using
> some
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> other
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> unit of analysis. In Kuhn's terms, discovery of the unit is the
> new
> >>>>>>>>>> paradigm, after which it is just a matter of solving puzzles.
> So for
> >>>>>>>>>> graduate students to use the concept of unit in their research,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> often
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> depends on the wisdom of teh direction they get from their
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> supervisor. I
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> don't know how many PhD students I've met who have got to this
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> point in
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> their thesis and discover that the data they have is not the
> data
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> they now
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> know they need.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Katherine Wester Neal wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I like Holli's plan to commit some time to reading the two
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> articles. But,
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> as usual, I don't know that I'll have much to contribute in
> posts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> I
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> usually get deep in thinking about the posts and don't follow
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> through
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> to write something. The writing is much harder, and I am
> usually
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> just
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> trying to keep up with reading!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For me, the thread has been fascinating, probably because I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> interested
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> in different units of analysis, what they might be used for,
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> how they
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> fit together with theory and conducting research. What are
> people
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> doing
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> with units of analysis and why? Or why aren't units of analysis
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> being used?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If anyone wants to write more in that direction, I'd be very
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> interested to
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> read, and I'll try to respond, although the questions might be
> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> basic as
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> these.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, Andy has basically been articulating my thoughts (in a
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> much more
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> eloquent way than I would) about action as a unit of analysis.
> In
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> Mike's
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> example about driving and thinking and writing, I'd add that
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> action is
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> mediated. Together with sociocultural and historical factors
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> influenced those actions (and which, as has been said here
> before,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> are
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> often difficult to get a look at), the actions create a
> picture of
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>> much
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> more than just Mike's behavior.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Katie
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal
> >>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> ............................................................
> >>>>>>>>> Katerina Plakitsi
> >>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Science Education
> >>>>>>>>> School of Education
> >>>>>>>>> University of Ioannina
> >>>>>>>>> University Campus Dourouti 45110
> >>>>>>>>> Ioannina
> >>>>>>>>> Greece
> >>>>>>>>> tel. +302651005771
> >>>>>>>>> fax. +302651005842
> >>>>>>>>> mobile.phone +306972898463
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> http://users.uoi.gr/kplakits
> >>>>>>>>> http://erasmus-ip.uoi.gr
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.lib.uoi.gr/serp
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with an
> >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>


--
*Patrick Jaki*







*P. O Box 505 WitsJohannesburg2050South Africa*
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