Re: VS: [xmca] Re: Knotworking (ex: Double stimulation?)

[Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>]

.....and for some of us it is about "being" :-).
Robert

On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Greg,
> I think the idea of "blood" is a reification, i.e., a mystification of
> association.
> Ancient society diefied Being; the bourgeoisie deifies Having; for us it
> is about Doing,
>
> Andy
>
> Greg Thompson wrote:
>
>> I think mike found it, but just in case others are interested, it is from
>> a
>> piece by Sahlins titled "What is Kinship?" (pssst, here is a publicly
>> available link:
>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/**79046197/Marshall-Sahlins-**What-Kinship<http://www.scribd.com/doc/79046197/Marshall-Sahlins-What-Kinship>
>> )
>>
>> And here is a quote from the blurb for a book by Sahlins on the same
>> subject, and in which Sahlins defines kinship as "mutuality of being."
>> There Sahlins writes:
>>
>> "Kinfolk are persons who are parts of one another to the extent that what
>> happens to one is felt by the other. Meaningfully and emotionally,
>> relatives live each other’s lives and die each other’s deaths."
>>
>> Isn't this also the basis for "voluntary associations" as well as for
>> other
>> forms of on-the-ground organizing such as what is happening on the streets
>> of Brazil?
>>
>> -greg
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 4:10 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> What is the Sahlins ref, Greg?
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Greg Thompson <
>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>       Yes, this idea of projects works very nicely for capturing the
>>>> mutual
>>>> imbrications of persons in one another's lives.
>>>>
>>>> But I'm still caught up on "voluntary associations" vis a vis kinship.
>>>> My
>>>> "beef" here is with the idea of historical discontinuity of primitive
>>>> vs.
>>>> modern systems. I think there always were "voluntary association" as you
>>>> put it, and perhaps the major difference is one of scale.
>>>>
>>>> Consider this passage from Marshall Sahlins on kinship:
>>>>
>>>> "On the Alaskan North Slope, the Iñupiat will name children and
>>>> sometimes
>>>> adults after dead persons, thus making them members of their namesakes’
>>>> families.  Over a lifetime, reports Barbara Bodenhorn (2000: 137), an
>>>> Iñupiat may acquire four or five such names and families, although those
>>>> who bestow the names were not necessarily related before, and in any
>>>> case
>>>> they are never the birth parents. Begetters, begone: natal bonds have
>>>> virtually no determining force in Iñupiat kinship. Kinship statuses are
>>>>
>>>>
>>> not
>>>
>>>
>>>> set by the begetters of persons but by their namers. Indeed, it is the
>>>> child who chooses the characteristics of birth, including where he or
>>>> she
>>>> will be born and of what sex.""
>>>>
>>>> Thus, kinship itself can be a "voluntary association" that holds
>>>>
>>>>
>>> different
>>>
>>>
>>>> groups together. Exogamous affinal kinship relationships make the point
>>>> still more clearly - kinship is always a "voluntary association" and one
>>>> that holds groups together in projects by virtue of imputing a sameness
>>>>
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> substance.
>>>>
>>>> Today it seems that the modes of establishing a sameness of substance
>>>> are
>>>> making all kinds of inter-relations possible that were previously
>>>> unthinkable. Creating bonds by marital relations are rather limiting in
>>>> terms of bond-forming since marriages typically involve small numbers of
>>>> persons - notwithstanding polygynous and polyandrous marriages - which
>>>> increase the numbers of connections only slightly. Those numbers are
>>>> miniscule in comparison to the bonds that are formed by modern statehood
>>>> and nationality.
>>>>
>>>> Benedict Anderson's book Imagined Communities provides a nice case study
>>>>
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> the kinds of projects that you speak of, Andy, and with respect to the
>>>> emergence of "nationality". In Anderson's narrative, states are formed
>>>> by
>>>> the process of nationalization of a language and, critically, by the
>>>> creation of a national press. Collective projects (the basis for
>>>> imagined
>>>> communities such as a "state") thus are implied by collective
>>>> representations of happenings in the world.
>>>>
>>>> But the situation has been transformed still more by recent
>>>> developments.
>>>>
>>>> Today a student in Brazil can watch a video of the tazing (or
>>>> pepper-spraying) of a student or bunch of students in California and
>>>>
>>>>
>>> feel a
>>>
>>>
>>>> kind of shared substance - that she and I share some essential substance
>>>>
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> commitment to a cause or oppression by a dominant power. It would seem
>>>>
>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>
>>>> this creates whole new possible forms of kinship/nationalism/**
>>>> solidarity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> A
>>>
>>>
>>>> step towards conditions in which workers of the world might begin to see
>>>> their common situation?
>>>>
>>>> maybe that's taking things too far.
>>>>
>>>> -greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 7:16 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And as Mike sketched a few days ago, what an amazing little country
>>>>> Finland is!!
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that in order to understand an object (such as the unique
>>>>> nature of Finland, or the upsurge in Brazil) - complex, dynamic
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> entities
>>>
>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> we need *units* which are themselves processes of development. For
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> example,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe we can understand a nation state as a collection of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> *social
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> groups* (eg ethnic, or economic, etc.), but rather as a process made up
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> many other distinct processes of development, i.e., projects, which
>>>>> interact with one another.
>>>>>
>>>>> Formally speaking, the "systems of activity" which Yrjo introduced are
>>>>> indeed processes of development; but "project" is much more explicitly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Further, we individuals apprehend these units (be they "systems of
>>>>> activity" or "projects") as *concepts*, and the rules, norms,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> community,
>>>
>>>
>>>> division of labour, etc. etc., *flow from the concept* as does the
>>>>> *ever-changing conception of the *object*. If objects (and community,
>>>>> norms, etc.), pre-exist an activity, then we don't have Activity Theory
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> all, we have some variety of structuralism of functionalism.
>>>>>
>>>>> So it is important to begin from the project, each of which is a
>>>>> particular instance of a concept, and all the elements (norms, tools,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> etc.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> of the project flow from its concept and the conditions in which it is
>>>>> developing.
>>>>>
>>>>> So for example, I don't think it is appropriate to conceive the social
>>>>> movements, voluntary associations, protests, political conflicts and
>>>>> alliances of 20th century Finland as "systems" or "institutions." They
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> projects, projects which constructed modern Finland, and which indeed,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> one
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> day, become "systems", but never irreversibly. The institutions which
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> are
>>>
>>>
>>>> the products of social movements, protests, and so on (projects) are
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> never
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> irreversibly reified as "fields" or "figured worlds" or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> "pratico-inerts"
>>>
>>>
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "structures" or any of the other renderings of the social fabric as
>>>>> composed of dead and lacking in teleological content.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rauno Huttunen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Similar things happened in Finland too. See article by professor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Martti
>>>
>>>
>>>> Siisiäinen: Social Movements, Voluntary Associations and Cycles of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Protest
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> in Finland 1905-91 (Scandinavian Political Studies, Bind 15, 1992).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://tidsskrift.dk/index.****php/scandinavian_political_**<https://tidsskrift.dk/index.**php/scandinavian_political_**>
>>>>>> studies/article/view/13149/****25059<
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://tidsskrift.dk/index.**php/scandinavian_political_**
>>> studies/article/view/13149/**25059<https://tidsskrift.dk/index.php/scandinavian_political_studies/article/view/13149/25059>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Rauno
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________****__________
>>>>>> Lähettäjä: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>>>> k&#228;ytt&#228;j&#228;n Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] puolesta
>>>>>> Lähetetty: 26. kesäkuuta 2013 3:30
>>>>>> Kopio: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>> Aihe: Re: [xmca] Re: Knotworking (ex: Double stimulation?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But to make a distinction is not necessarily to set up a dichotomy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Australian social history the appearance of voluntary associations
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> n
>>>
>>>
>>>> the 19th century (mostly trade union-type organisations, but also
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> sports
>>>
>>>
>>>> and recreation, mutual-aid of various kinds, and later political
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> parties
>>>
>>>
>>>> and groups) was a significant development, which meant people
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> regularly
>>>
>>>
>>>> travelling long distances to stitch together the fabric of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> emerging
>>>
>>>
>>>> nation. In the US, the parallel role was played, I believe, to a great
>>>>>> extent, also by Protestant sects, who pioneered the building of new
>>>>>> bonds of sociability and trust across great distances.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These New World projects constructed a new kind of civil society and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>> basis for modernity. According to Hegel for example, modernity is
>>>>>> characterised by the eclipse of family as the chief bond and political
>>>>>> force in a state, by voluntary associations, such as professional
>>>>>> associations or regional community organisations, where people of
>>>>>> differing traditions construct new modern conditions of collaboration.
>>>>>> But of course, the family and the state both remain in place!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, Andy, I think the anthropological notion of kinship captures
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> your
>>>
>>>
>>>>  point that not all biological relatives are "kin". Anthropologist
>>>>>>> David Schneider, for example, points out how kinship is really just
>>>>>>> the Aristotelian notion of "identity", and that "kinship" is
>>>>>>> fundamentally a matter of sameness of substance. Thus, political and
>>>>>>> religious affiliations are, in his view, systems of kinship.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems like the same would be true of so-called "voluntary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> association"
>>>
>>>
>>>>  (scare quotes because of skepticism of notions of voluntary and the
>>>>>>> assumptions it makes about us as subjects). Any voluntary association
>>>>>>> worth its salt will surely have this sense of shared substance (and
>>>>>>> with regard to the making of this shared substance, Durkheim is
>>>>>>> essential - but that's a different story for a different time!). And
>>>>>>> don't most of these organizations have some sense of kinship built
>>>>>>> into their relational terms, whether "brother" or "brotherhood" or
>>>>>>> "family" or whatever?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Yes, there is no doubt that the commitment many people have to
>>>>>>>     continuing the work of their parents and even ancestors, and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> their
>>>
>>>
>>>>      investment in their children, evidences a project, an archetypal
>>>>>>>     project in fact. "Voluntary associations" are historically a
>>>>>>>     relatively recent invention, prior to which kinship was possibly
>>>>>>>     the most significant project in human life. Of course, it is not
>>>>>>>     always the case that a kinship relation always indicates the
>>>>>>>     relevance of the concept of "project" - I have cousins whom I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> have
>>>
>>>
>>>>      never met and to whom I have no commitment whatsoever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**
>>>>> ------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/****AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden>
>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>> _____
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>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>>>> ______________________________**____________
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>
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-- 
*Robert Lake  Ed.D.
*Associate Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-0355
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460

 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
midwife.*
*-*John Dewey.
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