Hi Antti It took me a little hunting to find the Engestrom&Sanino article, but found it. Since it is published in open source journal, I am posting here so others can see what Antti is referring to. mike On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Antti Rajala <ajrajala@gmail.com> wrote: > Greg, > > You asked: > ”My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In individuals alone? > Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and perhaps in > amanner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe there is > aconcept for that that is different from "double stimulation.” > > I think that double stimulation can be analyzed not only at the individual > level but at the collective level as well. Actually, the study of Engeström > and Sannino (2013) that I referred to in my earlier email gives a nice > example. The study also involves in some respects a similar situation as > the one that you described having taken place with the workers in Malaysia. > > According to my reading, the study describes a change laboratory > intervention taking place in a university library. The library as invited > researchers to help them find new forms of work with research groups. A > first stimulus emerges in the course of the change laboratory intervention, > as a member of one of the research groups that the university library is > delivering services says that they can find these services in the internet > without the help of the library. Thus a problem emerges for the librarians > to collectively produce a service that would be genuinely helpful for the > research groups. > > In solving this problem, they organize their collective action with the > help of a second stimulus, namely the concept of knotworking (Engeström, > Engeström & Vähäaho, 1999) that the researchers have introduced in the > beginning of the change laboratory. In particular, a new working group, a > knot, is formed that starts to work with the emergent problem of inventing > a useful service. > > What is in my opinion very innovative, Engeström and Sannino also provide > an example of this second stimulus, the concept of knotworking, becoming an > initial theoretical generalization that is reworked and enriched through a > process of ascending from abstract to concrete as the intervention evolves. > Specifically, in the end of the intervention, the concept of knotworking > gives rise to many concrete, practical applications of the librarians' work > at multiple levels of hierarchy. > > As for the unit of analysis, I think that the unit of analysis in the study > is the intersection of several activity systems, the university libarary > and the research groups, In terms of agency, one can maybe talk about > shared transformative agency in which the subject is not an individual but > a collective. (More about shared transformative agency, see Virkkunen’s > paper in http://www.activites.org/v3n1/v3n1.book.pdf#page=43) > > Best wishes, Antti > > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote: > > > forgot to send this to XMCA > > > > -----Forwarded by ERIC RAMBERG/spps on 06/06/2013 10:56AM ----- > > To: ablunden@mira.net > > From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps > > Date: 06/06/2013 09:05AM > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation? > > > > True true, the history of philosophy does lead there Andy. But that > leads > > to my trepidations regarding ideology lacking in practice. > > > > What substance within conscious formation is measurable? > > > > I believe that answer has yet to be found > > perhaps? > > > > eric > > > > -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: ----- > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > From: Andy Blunden > > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu > > Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation? > > > > Eric, > > By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian dilemma, of unifying two > > disparate abstractions, you determine the answer as from the history of > > philosophy and the answer is Hegel's answer: "a formation of > > consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein. > > > > Andy > > > > ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote: > > > I believe that this discussion needs to involve "unit of analysis" for > > > what it is that provides the mediational method. > > > What unit of study can properly encapsulate that which is being > observed? > > > Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron? > > > Oh my what a great temptest LSV did let out of the teapot > > > eric > > > > > > -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: ----- > > > To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior > > > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu > > > Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation? > > > > > > Sure, Greg, > > > Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of > > > their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a > > > "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double > > > stimulation" is fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a > > > stimulus and our response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's > > > formulations at that time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a > > > word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change > > > you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies any kind of > > > "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in their structure and > > > has a genetic construction (see the studies about concepts, for > > > instance), a sign could not be only a second series of stimuli ruled > > > by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in "Instrumental > > > method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R is a direct > > > stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a second series > > > of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect stimulus > > > response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R > > > remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between > > > different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit > > > between different words of signification, and culture is a human > > > production that involves the "generalization" from a world to another, > > > broader, maybe not exactly more precise, but "broader", in my opinion. > > > I don't know... > > > > > > > > > "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex) > > > connection A?B is established between two stimuli A and B. In > > > artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same impression, by means of a > > > psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme) > > > instead of the direct connection A?B two new ones are established: A?X > > > and X?B Just like the connection A?B each of them is a natural > > > conditional reflex process, determined, by the properties of the brain > > > tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is the fact of the > > > replacement of one connection A?B by two connections: A?X and X?B They > > > lead to the same result, but by a different path. What is new is the > > > artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural process > > > of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active utilization > > > of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The Instumental > > > Method" (this is 1930) > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm > > > > > > But already in 1928: > > > > > > "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child. The > > > relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means > > > of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative or > > > conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and > > > B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign, > > > instead of one associative connection AB, the others are set up AX and > > > BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each > > > of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of > > > conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB." Vygotsky (1928) > > > > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm > > > > > > > > > See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of > > > connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the > > > same in 1933-34... > > > > > > "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In > > > older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a > > > time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together” > > > (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of the constancy of > > > meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of meaning was already > > > present in the older investigations. Whereas before our task was to > > > demonstrate what “the knot” and logical memory have in common, now our > > > task is to demonstrate the difference that exists between them.From > > > our works it follows that the sign changes the interfunctional > > > relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34) > > > > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm > > > > > > > > > And now? > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > Achilles. > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600 > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation? > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > > > > > > Achilles, > > > > > > > > Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely. You > > say > > > > that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that > > > "double > > > > stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your > message. > > > > > > > > If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing? > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior < > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than > > double > > > > > stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another > > > way for > > > > > think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of > > > consciousness" > > > > > (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the > > similarity > > > > > between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was > > > forgotten that > > > > > sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in account. > > > Double > > > > > stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point > > > of view. > > > > > > > > > > Achilles. > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600 > > > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com; > > > antti.rajala@helsinki.fi > > > > > > CC: > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation? > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively > > > connected > > > > > > (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the > > > notion of > > > > > > "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure out): > > > > > > "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between > > different > > > > > > domains of their worlds" (1992: 47). > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > xmca mailing list > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > > _____ > > > > > xmca mailing list > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > _____ > > > > xmca mailing list > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > __________________________________________ > > > _____ > > > xmca mailing list > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > _____ > > > xmca mailing list > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts > > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden > > > > __________________________________________ > > _____ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > __________________________________________ > > _____ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >
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