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Re: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis" (timeo Vygotskii et dona ferentem)
That would be true, I think, if by thought we mean capitalist thought. It
would circulate as money. But I do not think that that was what Vygotsky
had in mind in writing Thought and Language.
Luis
On 2013-04-23 5:07 PM, "Martin Packer" <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>Yes, couldn't we take LSV to be saying that an analysis of "meaning" is
>central to the scientific study of consciousness? Just as Marx considered
>an analysis of "value" to be central to the scientific study of
>capitalist society? And then Thought and Language would be an
>illustration of such an analysis - of meaning as it circulates through
>the word, the concept, the thought...
>
>Doesn't seem so hyperbolic to me.
>
>Martin
>
>
>On Apr 23, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Achilles Delari Junior
><achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Anton,
>>
>> I agree with the repetition of the use of "hyperbole" as language
>>figure in Vygotsky's texts is a fact that difficult textual analysis
>>(oh, if can exist such a thing like a method of "textual analysis").
>>Really, for instance, there are many "central problems" of psychology in
>>Vygotsky different works ("mediated action", "freedom", "higher
>>psychological functions"...). But, if you take "meaningful word" as
>>analytic unit for "consciousness [problematic] problem" (if it is posed
>>as a "problem", we can suppose that is problematic, don't we?), is not
>>without propose, nor sou chimeric, to quest for "A" (not necessarily
>>"THE", even because in Russian there is no such grammatical class:
>>"definite article" or "indefinite article") kind of method of analysis.
>>Leaving this aim totally out of our research goals also is not so
>>interesting, because interpretative task can fall in relativistic
>>proceeding, and nothing will make really any sense beyond that of the
>>own introspection of the subject and of the researcher. The studies from
>>Vygotsky and Sakharov, Vygotsky and Shif, was some kind of attempt to
>>understand the development of meaning (this is a semantic aspect of
>>human life), and indirectly, the [problematic] development of
>>consciousness, through its unit of analysis, for instance. You can not
>>study directly the hole "mysterious character" of consciousness, but
>>you even can study of object of analysis of psychology through it's
>>clues, semiotic "indexes". Nobody will know directly how really is a
>>simple "atom", even so, some guys try to understand objectively it
>>through its manifestations, reconstructing theoretically the way from
>>inside to outside and vice versa - this is a more moderate Vygotsky's
>>analogy that we find in "Historical sense of the crisis of psychology",
>>for instance...
>>
>> Vygotsky uses several "hyperbolic" statements, but he was not so fool,
>>to take this so literally. Also not me, naive but no so fool...
>>
>> Болшое спасибо. До свиданиа.
>>
>> Achilles.
>>
>> P.S. And about the creation of a new kind of biological socialist human
>>being, I completely agree with you, this was a serious mistake,
>>"nonsense dream".
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:28:21 -0700
>>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis"
>>>(timeo Vygotskii et dona ferentem)
>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>> It is absolutely impossible to disagree with Rauno's comment. Indeed,
>>>the "semicheskii analiz" of Vygotskii
>>>
>>> is one of those programmatic statements, quite characteristic of this
>>>person, who, inter alia, would repeatedly claim that
>>>
>>> QUOTE
>>>
>>> The new society will create the new man.
>>> When one mentions the remolding of man as an indisputable trait of the
>>>new mankind and
>>> the artificial creation of a new biological type,
>>> then this will be the only and first species in biology which will
>>>create itself...
>>>
>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri14.htm
>>>
>>> END of QUOTE
>>>
>>> Indeed, such--and similar utopian and programmatic, yet thoroughly and
>>>hopelessly scientifically ungrounded--
>>> Vygotskii's statements are not to be taken for granted.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, regardless of whether we agree or disagree (i.e., fully agree?
>>>mainly agree? partially agree?
>>> disagree on most points? fundamentally disagree in virtually any
>>>respect?) with Vygotskii,
>>> the really meaningful question,
>>>
>>> I believe, is what exactly, *ACCORDING to VYGOTSKII*, is the
>>> "Semiotic [and/or "semantic" = semicheskyj] analysis" that, yet again
>>>according to this guy,
>>> "is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic and
>>>semantic structure of consciousness."
>>>
>>> And, more specifically, how exactly did ipse Vygotskii perform this
>>>kind of analysis?
>>>
>>> The answer, I guess, is as follows:
>>> Vygotskii DID NOT KNOW how exactly perform this "the only" analysis,
>>>and in this respect
>>> he did not go much further his usual programmatic, but pretty void
>>>from scholarly standpoint statements.
>>>
>>> So, if we dismiss the numerous "Vygotskian", including Wertsch's,
>>> interpretations of the Master's Teaching as irrelevant to our main
>>>question here, --
>>> on the excellent criticism of the "Vygotskians" see Miller's "Vygotsky
>>>in perspective"
>>> http://upbo.com/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9781107412477&ss=fro --
>>>
>>> then the three points made here previously are very much worth
>>>considering:
>>>
>>> 1. Nobody (even ipse Vygotsky!) has invented a method which reveals
>>>the structures of consciousness.
>>> 2. The very concept of consciousness is ... empirically ...
>>>problematic.
>>> 3. There is no single method that would reveal the secrets of
>>>consciousness.
>>>
>>> Good luck with the search for meaning anyway! Perhaps, some
>>>Gestaltists' work will help?
>>> If interested feel free to check the link:
>>>http://psyhistorik.livejournal.com/80047.html --
>>> most stuff in Russian, but some references in English are certainly of
>>>help.
>>> Also, you might want to explore how those Russian guys attempted to do
>>>the
>>> "semicheskii analiz" to the extent they understood this idea roughly
>>>in mid-1930s.
>>> But in order to do this, one needs to be able to read Russian, too.
>>>Yet again,
>>> see the entry, it might help:
>>>http://psyhistorik.livejournal.com/80047.html
>>>
>>> Good luck again! ;)
>>>
>>> AY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>>> To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 11:56:11 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis". Can
>>>you help me?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you. This problematic concept is the object of study for
>>>Vygotsky's psychology. This is the problem for those people who agree
>>>with Vygotsky.
>>> Achilles.
>>>
>>>> From: rakahu@utu.fi
>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis". Can
>>>>you help me?
>>>> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:43:28 +0000
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> You should not take Vygotsky's remark (the only adequate method for
>>>>the study of the systemic and semantic structure of consciousness) so
>>>>seriously. Nobody has invented a method which reveals the of
>>>>structures of consciousness. The very concept of consciousness is both
>>>>empirically and philosophically problematic. There is no single method
>>>>that would reveal the secrets of consciousness.
>>>>
>>>> Rauno Huttunen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>[mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Achilles Delari
>>>>Junior
>>>> Sent: 23. huhtikuuta 2013 7:29
>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> Subject: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis". Can you
>>>>help me?
>>>>
>>>> Greetings for all,
>>>>
>>>> Please, I understand that I have a major methodological problem in my
>>>>nearest research project: "how to understand human making-sense
>>>>through the concrete acts of a person's speech?". Along many years I
>>>>had thought about Vygotsky's claim that ""Semiotic [and/or "semantic"
>>>>= semicheskyj] analysis is the only adequate method for the study of
>>>>the systemic and semantic structure of consciousness." (see
>>>>http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousne
>>>>ss.htm). But it is not so clear how to proceed "Semiotic/semantic
>>>>analysis". Then, if you pleased, could somebody help me, shining my
>>>>mind about the (im)possibilities about somebody really learn *how to
>>>>do* such kind of analysis? Here in Brazil, close to me, there is
>>>>nobody working with something in this direction, then I have no local
>>>>resources to ask for... Forgive me about the naive character of the
>>>>question, but I really want to learn about.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much, once more. Best wishes.
>>>>
>>>> Achilles from Brazil.
>>>>
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