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Re: [xmca] Help with LSV and Heinz Werner links?
Some more on Werner (in this case re; micro genesis. Werner was in the essentially "romantic" tradition - inspired very much by Goethe (a complete set was in his living room - practically dominating the space). In that tradition, everything was seen as "in development" but development was defined in terms of a set of structural principles (the orthogenetic principle). From that viewpoint the distinction between learning and development was not particularly useful. Development referred to a change of structure (from undifferentiated to differentiated and hierarchically organized). This applied to things learned as much as to physiological processes). The original Wernerian treatment of micro genesis was that all processes are developmental occurring in micro or macro time. The early studies were the kind that lead to "backward masking" in later experimental cognitive work. The idea was that seein a contour was a developmental process, which, if interrupted would lead to the non-perception of the contour (typical study: a T-scope presentation of a disc, su rounded by an annulus - think donut and hole - if the annulus appeared before the disc could develop the disc wouldn't be seen. Applied more generally this developmental principle was everywhere to seen (e.g. A word presented at speed would be interpreted in a form similar to aphasia speech. Going further, the developmental principle was applied to analyzing successive drafts of a dissertation where one could see processes of differentiation and hierarchical integration.
This approach had its dangers along with it's insights. It could too easily lead to ideas of "primitive" mentality (structurally defined - a lot based on Cassirer's work in the Philosophy of Symbolic Forms). Scribner's "Vygotsky's uses of history" does the same work to rescue Vygotsky's from this form of interpretation. Werner and Kaplan in the j. Anthropology do the same but in somewhat different terms.
For these thinkers learning was to be treated as development with the important issues being not about "origin" (what leads what), but about form - what is developed and how can it be described? Does it have "higher" and "lower" forms?
Hope this isn't too tangential (I stopped at including Lewin's Aristotelian and Gallilean modes of thought (a not unimportant backdrop to this line of thinking).
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 17, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Many thanks Professor Glick!
>
> I sincerely appreciate the back-stories - to my mind they are the warp and
> woof of the social fabric of intellectual work, just as important as the
> persons themselves who inhabit the positions and just as seldom appreciated
> (and too often discarded as "gossip").
>
> And I am duly fascinated by Clark Psychology's fantastic history of, as you
> say, "freaks to the field." Seems like exactly what academia needs more of.
>
> Anyway, thanks for providing this kind of interesting detail.
>
> Cheers,
> greg
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 3:20 PM, JAG <jglick@gc.cuny.edu> wrote:
>
>> Werner, himself, mentioned contact (but never specified how or where) and
>> Mike is right about the screwed up reference in Eisenstein. I think that
>> the point of contact was, in fact, Eisenstein. Werner, in his teaching,
>> focused on "physiognomic perception" (which, though Leipsig, had Berlin
>> overtones - ( form delivering meaning - not in the microgenetic sense) -
>> and that corresponded well with Eisenstein's work in "Film Forrm" (using
>> both "montage" and "physiognomic" imagery (think of the Teutonic Knights in
>> "Alexander Nevsky." I can't claim authority, but I can claim authoritative
>> gossip - cleaned from hallway talk, one on one meetings, and being around
>> at the right time. But anyway, Berlin or Leipsig, Werner was Austrian. One
>> can also look for roots (or at least intellectual points of contact) in
>> Hamburg, where Werner was hired to head Stern's lab (closed by the Nazis,
>> leading to Werner's leaving and Martha Muchow's suicide) - but before that,
>> the intellectual home of Jacob Von Uexkull and Ernst Cassirer.
>>
>> I've also got to add a personal PS here. Werner died in 1964 - just in time
>> to be swamped by the "canonization" of Piaget in Kessen and Kuhlmann's SRCD
>> monograph. I've often wondered if Mind in Society might have surfaced
>> earlier than 1978 had Werner lived. We were reading Vygotsky and Luria
>> (along with Piaget) in the late 50's and early 60's (several books with
>> "Speech and the Development of . . ." had appeared in English by then, as
>> well as Luria and Yudovitch's twin studies. For us "Clarkies" already
>> freaks to our field, Vygotsky was a central and continuing part of our
>> discourse. Thanks to Mind in Society and Jim Wertsch's work, the
>> conversation expanded and took on new forms.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Huw, and great question about meeting. (e.g, Have we met?)
>>>
>>> And thanks Mike - searching now. (and I think we have met?)
>>>
>>> -greg
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:43 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The expert on Werner and Vygotsky is Joseph Glick who is cc'ed on this
>>>> message.
>>>>
>>>> Werner is cited in Eisentshtein's writings (incorrect identification by
>>>> Leyda, the editor!) in
>>>> connection with the case study of the mnemonist written about later by
>>>> Luria. (Eisenshtein, LSV, and Luria appeared to interact a lot). Joe
>> has
>>> at
>>>> least one article in American Psychologist on this topic.
>>>>
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:30 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 October 2012 08:05, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just want to make sure I've tapped this Extended Mind with regard
>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>> question of whether there is direct evidence of a connection
>> between
>>>>>> Vygotsky and Werner?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They seem to me like "birds of a feather" (both were interested in
>>> art,
>>>>>> aesthetic experience, pedology, defectology, genetic method /
>>>>> developmental
>>>>>> psych) but I'm just wondering whether they ever "flocked together."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Despite the significant overlap, I can imagine them not having met
>> or
>>>>> known
>>>>>> of each other (Vygotsky seems more familiar with the Berlin school
>>> than
>>>>> the
>>>>>> Leipzig school, but that is from my very limited knowledge of his
>>>>>> work). But I'm just wondering if there are any interesting
>>> connections
>>>>> that
>>>>>> I should know about, or any leads that might help me to figure this
>>>> out?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any help is appreciated.
>>>>> Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kozulin mentions their referencing/knowing of each others work in "A
>>>>> Biography of Ideas" (p.118, p.166).
>>>>>
>>>>> Of further interest, what does "to meet" mean?
>>>>>
>>>>> Huw
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> p.s. this is for the paper I'm giving at the SCT/SLL annual
>>> gathering.
>>>> I
>>>>>> promise to cite my sources (i.e. you) appropriately!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Department of Anthropology
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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