Re: [xmca] In-betweenly (Duet in Counterpoint)

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

David, a question that came to mind as I listened to the verse of the duet:
You sang:

BARITONE: Lewin's reply to Ach is that outside and inside are really not so
different. But if you believe that then you have to recognize that
cognition is a form of communication just as communication is a form of
cognition.

QUESTION:
Do you then have to believe that subjectivity is a form of objectivity just
as objectivity is a form of subjectivity?

Do you then have to believe that mediating is a form of immediacy just as
immediacy is a form of mediating?

I'm circling around reflections on Greg's *betweeness* or Mike's
exploration of *gaps* or Heidegger's reflections on *nothing*

Larry




On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:16 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> System and systemic change do make a melodius duet, David.
> mike
>
> On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 6:27 PM, kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net> wrote:
>
> >   Sorry, Huw--I didn't see this. My new connection to xmca seems to be
> > generating a lot of bounces.
> >
> >
> >
> > I like the dialogue format: as you say, it is counterpoint: you are
> > singing contralto and I am going to baritone.
> >
> >
> > CONTRALTO:  I can't say I have a problem with the phrase.  Mediation can
> > refer to the
> > process of participation and regulation.  Though I think you're perfectly
> > right to point out errors of a metaphysical treatment of it.
> >
> > BARITONE: I guess I have a problem with phrases in general, or perhaps
> > with phrasing. I love the suspense in reading Vygotsky, the fact that
> > (e.g.) in the second chapter of the "History of the Development of the
> > Higher Psychic Functions" he says he's going to talk about "rudimentary
> > functions" and then he doesn't actually give you an example until sixty
> > paragraphs later. I love the fact that in the fourth and fifth chapters
> > when he wants to introduce a "fourth step" of the self-control of
> behavior
> > by cultural means (beyond Buhler's stages of "instincti", "habit", and
> > "intelligent solution"), he just calls it "fourth step". Actually, I
> think
> > he never really gave this great book the (rather immodest) name "the
> > History of the Development of the Higher Psychic Functions"--that name
> was
> > probably just taken by the Soviet editor from the first five words of the
> > first sentence, a practice Vygotsky himself NEVER followed and which is
> in
> > many ways the very opposite of his real naming practice.
> >
> >
> >
> >  I love the fact that in "Child Development", when he doesn't know what
> to
> > call something, he just says "neoformation". Or the fact that he never
> > actually decided on a name for his type of psychology (although he ruled
> a
> > number of names out, including "psychology of the higher functions",
> > "Marxist", "instrumental", and "cultural" psychology). I think that what
> > all of this means is that Vygotsky truly practices what he preaches when
> he
> > says (with Tolstoy of course) that the word is only ready when the
> concept
> > is. And sometimes not even then.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I guess mediation can refer to the process of participation and
> > regulation. But when it does that, it's a STRUCTURAL descriptor, or at
> best
> > a FUNCTIONAL description. What I am looking for is GENETIC EXPLANATION.
> > That is why "mediated" is a past participle; it's not "mediating". And
> > that's exactly what is missing here. Mind is not "mediated" until the fat
> > lady sings.
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTRALTO: If you wanted to hold mediation constant, as an interface and
> > as a
> > particular form of regulation,  then it seems that the agency would be
> > distributed.  You could then observe how the agency moves and is taken up
> > for a fixed form of mediation.
> >
> > BARITONE: When you say "hold mediation constant", you sound a distinctly
> > Saussurean note: a snapshot, an arresting of time. When you say an
> > "interface" you are imply that mediation is a membrane between inside and
> > out. But we are told that the mind ITSELF is mediated. Of course, that is
> > true at the end of development: everything that we find in the higher
> > psychological functions of the mind gets there through mediation. But
> what
> > about the other stuff? What exactly was there before all that mediated
> > stuff arrived?
> >
> >
> > CONTRALTO: Personally, I don't see gestalts as being undifferentiated.
> >
> >
> >
> > BARITONE: No, they are completely differentiated--at the end of
> > development. But the whole Gestaltist account of development is precisely
> > that they are undifferentiated at the beginning and they become
> > progressively differentiated. Otherwise, Gestaltism cannot recognize
> > development at all, since nothing can really exist outside of a Gestalt.
> So
> > the only way for development to take place is that Gestalts begin by
> being
> > undifferentiated. I think, actually, this is why Vygotsky ultimately
> > REJECTS Gestaltism: Vygotsky insists that differentiation happens because
> > of things happening to the Gestalt from the outside (specifically, the
> very
> > non-Gestalt, SYNTHETIC and even SYNTACTIC form of organization that is
> > language).
> >
> >
> >
> > What I really meant is that the Gestalists--and specifically the
> > Wurzburgers--sat in the same class, listened to the same teachers (Kulpe
> > and later Wertheimer) and even worked in the same labs and the used the
> > same instruments and were on the same side of a number of
> > controversies (Buhler and Ach were on the same side of the dispute
> between
> > Marbe and Wundt). But Gestalt included both Nazis (Ach and Folkelt) and
> > their victims (Selz, who was interned at Buchenwald and then died in a
> > cattle car on the way to Auschwitz, Lewin who had to leave behind
> > everything and take refuge in Iowa, Kohler, who refused to give the
> > required Hitler salute to start and end his classes, and left Germany
> when
> > his students were harrassed by stormtroopers after every class, Buhler,
> who
> > was mysteriously interrogated for six weeks and then left Austria never
> to
> > return.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Most of this was about Jews. Much of it was about politics (Kohler was
> not
> > a Jew).  But some of it was about psychology--I think that when we look
> at
> > Ach and Lewin's discussion over "will", we have to admit that Ach is
> > looking for some kind of "determining tendency" outside the self, in the
> > task itself, and that idea of will imposed from the outside is precisely
> > what Lewin will not allow. Similarly, I think that when Vygotsky insists
> > that instinct and habit are different precisely in their heritability, in
> > their permeability to outside influences, he is writing not only about
> > Hitler, but also about Lysenko.
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTRALTO: I suppose the
> > point really is whether the author, and reader, have a developed notion
> of
> > system.  System as some form of aggregated blob is insufficient.
> >
> >
> >
> > BARITONE: Yes, exactly. Sometimes counterpoint means perfect harmony.
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTRALTO: My
> > impression is that "commognition" serves to highlight the lesser known
> > conceptual aspects of communication, e.g. communication of a virus.
>  Again,
> > the main thing is system and systemic change.
> >
> > BARITONE: Lewin's reply to Ach is that outside and inside are really not
> > so different. But if you believe that then you have to recognize that
> > cognition is a form of communication just as communication is a form of
> > cognition.
> >
> >
> >
> > I love the ambiguity between your singular subject and your plural
> > complement: "the main thing IS system and systemic change", where these
> two
> > things are really just one. Perhaps, actually, we should sing this little
> > duet at two different tempos--an adagio and an allegretto.
> >
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> > __________________________________________
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> >
> >
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