Re: [xmca] Taking culture into account/Doing harm?

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Great stuff. Ready with the GS piece for tomorrow??
mike

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>wrote:

> Martin,
> yes, a little adrift, but I think that we are still on the main point.
>
> My take is that Michael sees inter-cultural critique as a perfectly
> reasonable thing to do (as long as it is reasonable), and, following
> Shweder, I'm raising some questions about it. That much, I think, we can
> agree upon.
>
> I'd add that I think Shweder sees a place for inter-cultural critique, but
> he would caution that you need to be extremely super-duper intensely
> cautious before doing so (and ideally one should take the care of an
> anthropologist in learning about the practices to be critiqued - these
> aren't decisions to be made prima facie).
>
> And yes, as David Ki points out, even the very definition of who is in and
> who is out is a question that is bounded by culture.
>
> Okay, one more thing to add, also following Shweder, I like the project of
> imagining a kind of "meta-culture" of universal principles (not unlike the
> UN's principles of human rights), but I also would like us to recognize
> that this has to involve more than just a bunch of people sitting in a room
> together and deciding what sounds like universal human rights. All the
> worse if these people are all Westerners and/or Western-educated.
>
> Shweder actually has proposed a set of universal principles. It's just
> that, to my mind, these tend to be rather tautological and therefore seem a
> bit empty (can't recall exactly, but one of these was something like "don't
> do bad things to good people").
>
> Thorny questions indeed. (and I feel a little more like James' squirrel
> chasing round the tree than Alice heading down a rabbit hole into an
> alternate universe...).
>
> Back to AERA submissions.
> -greg
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> > Can I say that I think you guys drifted off topic? Within a culture,
> > surely, there are institutions, practices, within which to raise these
> > kinds of issue and try to resolve them. That's not to say the debate is
> > easy, but everyone knows that it happens, and knows roughly how to do it
> > (courts, government, etc.)
> >
> > What I thought you began with was the question of on what basis
> evaluation
> > can be made of one culture from another. Suppose we all agree, here in
> > 'our' culture, that circumcision is bad. Do we then have a basis from
> which
> > to criticize another culture that practices circumcision; where perhaps
> it
> > is considered good?
> >
> > As Greg pointed out, Greg is one cultural psychologist (or psychological
> > anthropologist) who says we do not have that basis. I don't completely
> > agree with him. (But I can see the contradiction of critiquing a culture
> > that practices one kind of circumcision, when I live in a culture that
> > practices another kind of circumcision.)
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Michael Glassman wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Greg,
> > >
> > > We seem to be going down the rabbit hole here.  I guess I'll end by
> > saying I think settled science (broadly defined) and human rights should
> > play at least some role in most decisions.  In some cases it may be best
> to
> > dispense with these, but only after first examining them.  I think maybe
> > this is one of the reasons Vygotsky stresses the importance of scientific
> > concepts while still maintaining the role of everyday concepts in our
> lives
> > is because he saw both as playing important roles.  I think one of his
> more
> > interesting ideas is that you needed schools for scientific concepts,
> > perhaps because the main goal of many cultures is to recreate themselves
> > over generations.  Science can certainly be dangerous to tradtions, and
> > through it we lose the illusion of stability.  A lot of people don't like
> > this very much (see Global warming)  Every person should have access to
> > different types of information, but this can be destabilizing for
> cultures,
> > so there can be a tension.  I don't know if this is what Vygotsky meant,
> > but this is how I see him right now.  Sometimes culture wills out,
> > sometimes science and human rights wills out, but it should always be an
> > open contest.  To give primacy to culture strikes me as an inherently
> > conservative position.  And as my students pointed out about the Haidt
> > book, it is very often the person privileged by culture who takes that
> > position - which makes sense when you think about it.
> > >
> > > The question I am struggling with, and what has caused me to go back
> and
> > read cultural psychology readings with a new eye, is what does all this
> > mean in the information age.  What happens when the thirteen year old
> girl
> > goes online and decided she wants to remain intact, or two, or three.
>  Who
> > decides then?  And who protect the decision makers?
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Thompson
> > > Sent: Mon 7/23/2012 3:20 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Taking culture into account/Doing harm?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > sorry, didn't catch what the "it" (male circumcision?) was in the
> phrase
> > > "giving my parents a pass on it".
> > >
> > > RE: male circumcision, there is lots and lots and lots of debate:
> > > I just pulled this up:
> > >
> >
> http://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/
> > > but there is lots more debate out there, and a strong suggestion that
> it
> > is
> > > much more than "cosmetic." (and are you suggesting that "cosmetic"
> > surgery
> > > is an okay thing for doctors to practice).
> > >
> > > And if you read Fuambai's article, there is also debate about how
> serious
> > > female circumcision is (and Rick Shweder has often suggested that even
> a
> > > nick on the clitoris might be able to count as an effective practice of
> > > "circumcision").
> > >
> > > But the question isn't about male and female circumcision. The question
> > is:
> > > who gets to decide what is right and good and true when it comes to
> > > people's (whether a child's or adult's) lives?
> > >
> > > Do you really want to leave those decisions up to the doctors?
> > > I don't.
> > >
> > > -greg
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Michael Glassman <
> > MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Hi Gregg,
> > >>
> > >> One more thing,  to tell you the truth I wouldn't be so thrilled with
> a
> > >> bunch of academics giving my parents a pass on it because it was their
> > >> cultural belief systems.  How about you?
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>
> > >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Michael Glassman
> > >> Sent: Mon 7/23/2012 2:27 PM
> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Taking culture into account/Doing harm?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Greg,
> > >>
> > >> Obviously there are different levels of decision making.  Male
> > >> circumcision is basically cosmetic surgery while female circumcision
> > (and
> > >> perhaps it shouldn't be called that) has lifelong implications.  I
> don't
> > >> think it is a good comparison.  If male circumcision had the same
> > lifelong
> > >> implications I would say no, and be phenomenally angry at my parents -
> > and
> > >> believe they did not have the right in any way to do what they did, I
> am
> > >> sure of that.  So why would you think many females wouldn't feel the
> > same
> > >> way.  I think it is always better to make decisions based on as much
> > >> knowledge of people as possible rather than on opaque systems.
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >> mca@weber.ucsd.e <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.e>
> > >>
> > >> __________________________________________
> > >> _____
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
> > > Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition
> > > Department of Communication
> > > University of California, San Diego
> > > http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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> > >
> > >
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>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
> Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition
> Department of Communication
> University of California, San Diego
> http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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