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RE: [xmca] Taking culture into account/Doing harm?
The poststructural response, I guess, is that the question 'Am I within that culture?' doesn't have a unique answer.
I'm recalling from some number of years ago Jay Lemke's discussion of eco-social systems, and the complex interactions of levels at which we can be seen to be separated or apart from one another. The simple and reasonable criterion that we're only entitled to criticize a culture of which we're a member, becomes complicated to apply.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Packer
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:42 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Taking culture into account/Doing harm?
Can I say that I think you guys drifted off topic? Within a culture, surely, there are institutions, practices, within which to raise these kinds of issue and try to resolve them. That's not to say the debate is easy, but everyone knows that it happens, and knows roughly how to do it (courts, government, etc.)
What I thought you began with was the question of on what basis evaluation can be made of one culture from another. Suppose we all agree, here in 'our' culture, that circumcision is bad. Do we then have a basis from which to criticize another culture that practices circumcision; where perhaps it is considered good?
As Greg pointed out, Greg is one cultural psychologist (or psychological anthropologist) who says we do not have that basis. I don't completely agree with him. (But I can see the contradiction of critiquing a culture that practices one kind of circumcision, when I live in a culture that practices another kind of circumcision.)
Martin
On Jul 23, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Michael Glassman wrote:
> Hi Greg,
>
> We seem to be going down the rabbit hole here. I guess I'll end by saying I think settled science (broadly defined) and human rights should play at least some role in most decisions. In some cases it may be best to dispense with these, but only after first examining them. I think maybe this is one of the reasons Vygotsky stresses the importance of scientific concepts while still maintaining the role of everyday concepts in our lives is because he saw both as playing important roles. I think one of his more interesting ideas is that you needed schools for scientific concepts, perhaps because the main goal of many cultures is to recreate themselves over generations. Science can certainly be dangerous to tradtions, and through it we lose the illusion of stability. A lot of people don't like this very much (see Global warming) Every person should have access to different types of information, but this can be destabilizing for cultures, so there can be a tension. I don't know if this is what Vygotsky meant, but this is how I see him right now. Sometimes culture wills out, sometimes science and human rights wills out, but it should always be an open contest. To give primacy to culture strikes me as an inherently conservative position. And as my students pointed out about the Haidt book, it is very often the person privileged by culture who takes that position - which makes sense when you think about it.
>
> The question I am struggling with, and what has caused me to go back and read cultural psychology readings with a new eye, is what does all this mean in the information age. What happens when the thirteen year old girl goes online and decided she wants to remain intact, or two, or three. Who decides then? And who protect the decision makers?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Greg Thompson
> Sent: Mon 7/23/2012 3:20 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Taking culture into account/Doing harm?
>
>
>
> sorry, didn't catch what the "it" (male circumcision?) was in the phrase
> "giving my parents a pass on it".
>
> RE: male circumcision, there is lots and lots and lots of debate:
> I just pulled this up:
> http://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/
> but there is lots more debate out there, and a strong suggestion that it is
> much more than "cosmetic." (and are you suggesting that "cosmetic" surgery
> is an okay thing for doctors to practice).
>
> And if you read Fuambai's article, there is also debate about how serious
> female circumcision is (and Rick Shweder has often suggested that even a
> nick on the clitoris might be able to count as an effective practice of
> "circumcision").
>
> But the question isn't about male and female circumcision. The question is:
> who gets to decide what is right and good and true when it comes to
> people's (whether a child's or adult's) lives?
>
> Do you really want to leave those decisions up to the doctors?
> I don't.
>
> -greg
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Gregg,
>>
>> One more thing, to tell you the truth I wouldn't be so thrilled with a
>> bunch of academics giving my parents a pass on it because it was their
>> cultural belief systems. How about you?
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Michael Glassman
>> Sent: Mon 7/23/2012 2:27 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Taking culture into account/Doing harm?
>>
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> Obviously there are different levels of decision making. Male
>> circumcision is basically cosmetic surgery while female circumcision (and
>> perhaps it shouldn't be called that) has lifelong implications. I don't
>> think it is a good comparison. If male circumcision had the same lifelong
>> implications I would say no, and be phenomenally angry at my parents - and
>> believe they did not have the right in any way to do what they did, I am
>> sure of that. So why would you think many females wouldn't feel the same
>> way. I think it is always better to make decisions based on as much
>> knowledge of people as possible rather than on opaque systems.
>>
>> Michael
>> mca@weber.ucsd.e <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.e>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
> Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition
> Department of Communication
> University of California, San Diego
> http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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