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Re: [xmca] Alfred Schuetz
Peter: Thank you for the heads up on the book Hearing Gesture: How Our Hands Help Us Think I've ordered a copy and am looking forward to reading more from Susan G-M and working on links between her work and McNeil's.
Chai Yo
Phil
On 03/05/2012, at 8:07 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
> http://goldin-meadow-lab.uchicago.edu/PDF/1997/Iverson_GM1997.pdf
> http://goldin-meadow-lab.uchicago.edu/books/hear_gest.html
> http://goldin-meadow-lab.uchicago.edu/PDF/2008/Ping_GM_2008.pdf
> http://goldin-meadow-lab.uchicago.edu/PDF/1992/GM_Wein_Chang1992.pdf
>
> Mike, Larry, et al., Susan G-M was on my doctoral committee, I'm pleased to say. She's got a lot of this stuff archived at these links, and perhaps others at the http://goldin-meadow-lab.uchicago.edu URL. p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:21 PM
> To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Alfred Schuetz
>
> The person who came to mind for me on this issue is Susan Goldin-Meadow who shows that children about to display Piagetian conservation in words gesture in distinctively relevant ways before they verbalize the correct response. But I could not find the relevant material in an article. :-( mike
>
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Vera John-Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu> wrote:
>
>> Larry et al,
>> The dichotomy between words and gestures, (the latter being non-rule
>> governed and spontaneous) is not quite in accordance with the rich
>> research literature on gestures. David McNeil's research reveals
>> interesting synchronies between speech and gesture. You may like to
>> look into his work, Vera
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Larry Purss
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 5:11 PM
>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com
>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Alfred Schuetz
>>
>> Mike, Monica, Andy,and others
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike, sedimentation as the relatively stable product of joint activity
>> materialized in language is an excellent starting point. I'm still
>> attempting to understand what is meant by *materialized* in the
>> statement *materialized in language* In other words, as we
>> participate in the
>> *ensemble* of modalities expressing meaning [motor, perceptual,
>> gesture, language, artifacts] *as* enactments questions if one
>> modality (language) is conventional and rule bound while another
>> modality (gesture) is spontaneous and free and and expressing
>> subjective non-conventional [natural] expressions.
>>
>> I want to return to Martin's exploration of *inner form* as central to
>> meaning Shpet wrote a book on inner form where he expanded on
>> Humboldt's notion of language as a *living* entity. Shept wrote,
>>
>> "We must look at language not as a DEAD product OF a generative
>> process but instead language is a living generative process. This is
>> the central tenet he lays out in his phenomenological account of
>> language as *energeia* not
>> *ergon* [extending Humboldt's idea]. Language *as* activity of the
>> spirit and the immanent work of the soul. Language is the foundation
>> of the very nature of being human. ... Language can be viewed not only
>> as a substance but as a SUBJECT. Not only as a thing, product, or
>> result of production [instrument or tool to be picked up and used] but
>> *as* production PROCESS asenergeia."
>>
>> The notion that language is a SUBJECT, an activity of the spirit, adds
>> an element of dynamism that is often not a part of contemporary Western
>> traditions of schorlarship. Martin's exploration of Merleau-Ponty's
>> notion of meaning *as* style explores the same theme.
>>
>> I would like to add Gadamer's voice to this conversation with his
>> notion that sedimented materiality in language may have its *own*
>> being that participates and answers the interpreter in genuine
>> conversations [living texts]. Conversations & texts are
>> hermeneutically interpreted and in THIS dialogical process BOTH
>> subject and living materialized language [as subject] are transformed
>> within expanding *fusions* of horizons. This suggests that language
>> itself is living spirit [being] with its own energeia and its own
>> horizon of understanding that can *open* and *unveil* an infinity of the *unsaid* in its enactment with our subjectiviy.
>>
>> This reflection on language as living energeia may be far too
>> metaphysical [with talk of spirit and soul] and I may be
>> mis-understanding Shpet and Gadamer and Merleau-Ponty. [I will leave others to comment on Vygotsky].
>> However this phenomenological, historical, and metaphorical
>> exploration attempting to render the energeia of language in DYNAMIC
>> flight, and its infinite unveiling of the *unsaid* within further
>> conversations and further unveilings] seems to be a theme inhabiting language.
>>
>> I may be taking us all down a rabbit hole and if so I apologize. I do
>> not have a background in language studies but the materiality of
>> language [object *enlightenment*, subject *romanticism*, energeia,
>> convention, rule bound, non-conventional, fluid, dynamic, spontaneous,
>> living, product, productive] seems to have an ambiguous nature that
>> calls for continuous hermeneutical unveiling as we descend deeper into
>> its overflowing potential.
>>
>> Elena Cuffari playing within the traditions of phenomenology,
>> pragmatics, and gesture studies as one example of this living energeia
>> [not ergon]
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> PS My jumping off point for these reflections on Vygotsky being
>> influenced by Shpet.
>>
>> http://books.google.ca/books?id=iw4jk11pm_YC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=Pheno
>> menolo
>>
>> gy+of+language+%22inner+form%22&source=bl&ots=WwslGiIO7c&sig=QPVSgaPHx
>> gy+of+language+MdWYQ4
>>
>> EImKktK-Hcqc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cr6hT4mhCIKyiQKhm8CYBw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=on
>> epage& q=Phenomenology%20of%20language%20%22inner%20form%22&f=false
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That is from my memory of lsv, not my idea.
>>> mike
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:36 AM, monica.hansen <
>>> monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Describing meaning as a "the most stable pole" is that your
>>>> metaphor for your interpretation of LSV as a whole or does that
>>>> come from a
>> particular
>>>> contextual instantiation?
>>>>
>>>> When you put it that way, Mike, it does seem daunting! It is
>>>> amazing we ever thought to study psychological processes,
>>>> especially using science
>> ;).
>>>> There are so many factors that can't be isololated--the nature of
>>>> the relationships in question is not easily defined by the types of
>>>> relationships we are used to establishing in science. So, all I can
>>>> come
>> up
>>>> with is that we continue to work at our understandings.
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] on
>>>> behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:35 AM
>>>> To: Larry Purss
>>>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Alfred Schuetz
>>>>
>>>> Parsing the multi-phased, overlapping, seemingly cyclical processes
>>>> involved in joint mediated action in real time seems like a task
>>>> that
>> must
>>>> be specified in the particulars of the case, Larry. Avoiding the
>>>> pothole that opens up when we murder to dissect seems essential,
>>>> but rendering accessible the process in flight also seems essential.
>>>>
>>>> We have to make sense at the same time that we are making meaning,
>>>> seems to me. If, a la lsv, meaning is thought of as "the most
>>>> stable pole" of externalized sense making, materialized in
>>>> language, perhaps it can be thought of the sedimented (relatively
>>>> stable) product of joint activity.
>>>>
>>>> How to obtain empirical evidence of these multi-temporal,
>>>> simultaneous, two way processes at multiple time scales seems a
>>>> question worth asking.
>>>> Especially in micro time (relative to ordinary experience) getting
>>>> access to observation of the processes at work seems a daunting
>> challenge.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> You wrote,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> from this perspective, meaning is retrospectively constructed.
>>>>> That idea seems entirely consistent with joint-mediated activity
>>>>> as a unit of analysis for lots of the phenomena we discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> The queston that comes to mind is, Do we grant the backward
>>>>> glance
>> the
>>>>> royal road *to* meaning?
>>>>> Where do we locate the *dialogical* notion of mediation that
>>>>> posits meaning as located *in* the answering of the other? Until
>>>>> our playful encounter *in* the conversation [conversation as
>>>>> having its own living experience or being] is answered meaning
>>>>> continues in transition to becoming. This notion of meaning
>>>>> points more to the centrality of
>>>>> *translation* within the dance rather than locating meaning in
>>>>> the completed actuality of our anticipated projection, as determinative.
>> At
>>>>> least within the conversation I'm having with myself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike, as Martin is expressing, what is the relation BETWEEN *the
>>>> backward
>>>>> glance* as completing the arc AND the *answering of the other* as
>>>>> the completion of the arc?
>>>>>
>>>>> Are these alternative ways of *forming* meaning? The backward
>>>>> glance
>> as
>>>> a
>>>>> particular TYPE of consciousness and the *answering other* as
>>>>> another TYPE? The centrality of the permeable relational
>>>>> boundary between
>> inner
>>>>> and outer and the reciprocity and movement back and forth between
>> these
>>>>> forms of meaning? Or does one type subsume the other?
>>>>>
>>>>> Both point to *joint mediation* but one seems to privilege
>>>>> *cognition*
>>>> as
>>>>> located in subjectivity [MY backward glance] while the other form
>>>>> of mediation seems to privilege the *play* as having its own
>>>>> being *in*
>>>> which
>>>>> *we* [not *I*] participate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 9:32 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> To me what stands out is the fact that from this perspective,
>>>>>> meaning
>>>> is
>>>>>> retrospectively
>>>>>> constructed. That idea seems entirely consistent with
>>>>>> joint-mediated activity as a unit of analysis for lots of the
>>>>>> phenomena we discuss, teaching/learning processes for example.
>>>>>> I am not so sure about the "reflective attitude" part being
>> necessary.
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Larry Purss
>>>>>> <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On page 4 of the article on multiple realities Schultz
>>>>>>> writes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it makes us - in our language - either live within our present
>>>>>> experiences,
>>>>>>> directed toward their objects, or turn back in a reflective
>> attitude
>>>> to
>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> past experiences and ask for their meaning.*[7]*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the same spirit as Martin was reflecting on the *relation
>> between*
>>>>>>> realization and instantiation [*play* in Gadamer's language]
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> either/or
>>>>>>> language in the above quote [directed toward objects OR
>>>>>>> turning
>> back]
>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> be interpreted *as* a reciprocal hermeneutical relation of
>>>> continuous
>>>>>>> moving back and forth and interpenetrating with more permeable
>>>>>> boundaries
>>>>>>> and more dynamic flow [in other words *fusing* of the horizons
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> present
>>>>>>> experiences and reflective attitude]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I understand Gadamer, he would suggest Schultz is operating
>>>>>>> from
>> a
>>>>>>> particular prejudice-structure of understanding reflective
>>>>>>> conduct [subject-object reflection] whereas Gadamer is
>>>>>>> pointing to an
>>>>>> alternative
>>>>>>> form of what he terms *effective* reflection. I acknowledge I
>>>>>>> may
>>>> have
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> *mis*-understanding Gadamer, and what I'm suggesting is
>>>>>>> tentative,
>>>> but
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>> hearing a particular type of reflection being articulated as I
>>>>>>> read
>>>> the
>>>>>>> article.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Larry Purss
>>>>>>> <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andy, Mike, Martin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for this lead. I have been reading Gadamer's
>>>>>>>> response to
>>>>>> Habermas
>>>>>>>> and the interplay between his notion of *traditions* and
>>>>>>>> Habermas
>>>>>> notion
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> *emancipation* within social theory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The two chapter's of Martin's book will help further the
>>>>>> conversations on
>>>>>>>> these themes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Martin, your conversation with David on the interplay of
>>>> realization
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> instantiation and the centrality of the *relation between*
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>> concepts
>>>>>>>> seems central to this discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also wonder about the interplay between realization and
>>>> reflection
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Gadamer's notion of multiple TYPES of reflection. Assertive
>>>>>> reflection,
>>>>>>>> thematic reflection, and what Gadamer names as *effective
>>>> reflection*
>>>>>>>> where one engages with developing the skills to enter and
>>>> participate
>>>>>>>> effectively in playing the games without holding back and
>> *merely*
>>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>>> at playing the game. Effective playing as having its *own*
>>>>>>>> being
>>>> and
>>>>>>> *we*
>>>>>>>> enter this play and get *taken up* and *carried* along
>>>>>>>> within the
>>>>>> play.
>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>> privleging either *subjective* consciousness or *objective*
>>>>>> consciousness
>>>>>>>> but rather privileging the play in which subjectivity and
>>>> objectivity
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> their *ground* [metaphorically]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Martin, I'm not sure if this was the direction you were
>>>>>>>> taking theconversation, but it what I interpreted you saying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 3:51 PM, mike Cole
>>>>>>>> <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Andy et al -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Martin's book, the science of qualitative research has a
>>>>>>>>> chapter
>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> traces Kant-Husserl-
>>>>>>>>> Schutz - BergerLuckman that we r reading at Lchc. It helped
>>>>>>>>> me a
>>>> lot
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> sort out this branch
>>>>>>>>> of thought. It is followed by a chapter that traces
>>>>>>>>> Heidegger -
>>>>>> Merleau
>>>>>>>>> Ponty- garfinkle.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have heard there is an electronic version, but do not
>>>>>>>>> know how
>>>> to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> it. Working from actual hard copy!
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Andrew Babson
>>>>>>>>> <ababson@umich.edu
>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He was very influential to Garfinkel, and so from an
>>>> intellectual
>>>>>>>>>> historical perspective, the development of
>>>>>>>>>> ethnomethodology, conversation analysis and modern sociolinguistics.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/12, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd just like to share the attached article, written in
>>>>>>>>>>> 1945
>> by
>>>>>>> Alfred
>>>>>>>>>>> Schuetz, a refugee from the Frankfurt School living in
>>>>>>>>>>> New
>>>> York,
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> many others. In the article he appropriates Wm James, GH
>>>>>>>>>>> Mead
>>>> and
>>>>>> J
>>>>>>>>>>> Dewey, whilst coming from the Pheneomenology of Husserl,
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>> adapt
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> concepts of Pheneomenology to social theory. It is quite
>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>>>>> remains, in my view within the orbit of Phenomenology,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>> readers
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> recognise significant points of agreement with AN
>>>>>>>>>>> Leontyev's
>>>>>> Activity
>>>>>>>>>>> Theory. What he calls "Conduct" comes close to "Activity,"
>> and
>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>> introduces the concept of Action which is certainly the
>>>>>>>>>>> same
>> as
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>>>>> for CHAT, and instead of "an activity" (the 3rd level in
>> ANL's
>>>>>>> system)
>>>>>>>>>>> he has "Project." But although this project has the same
>>>> relation
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> Action, it is a subjectively derived project posited on
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>> world,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than project discovered in the world, and having
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> basically
>>>>>>>>>>> societal origin. This is the point at which I think he
>> confines
>>>>>>> himself
>>>>>>>>>>> to Phenomenology, and fails to reach a real social theory.
>> The
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>>> business about "multiple realities" which gives the
>>>>>>>>>>> article
>> its
>>>>>> title
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> very tedious, but actually is valid in its basics I think.
>>>>>>>>>>> Some of us on this list may appreciate him. He's a
>>>>>>>>>>> recent
>>>>>> discovery
>>>>>>>>> for me.
>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>>>>>> Joint Editor MCA:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
>>>>>>>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>>>>>>>> Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
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