Re: [xmca] adult affordances

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Andrew and Martin
The turn this thread has taken is fascinating [and also troubling because
*owning* is so  pervasive]
Andrew, your comment,

children's contributions to household work in these communities are largely
bound to personal domains of responsibility and that those domains are
delimited by fairness
principles: children are responsible for things they "own" (their things,
spaces, messes).

The question of contributing to and taking responsibility for things that
are personally *owned* ties into the comments Greg contributed on Western
ethno-psychology that posits self-control and self-responsibility as the
ground rules for a *way of life* [and the language-games that sustain this
value of personal ownership.]

Are *ways of life* such as described above able to be transformed
intentionally?? It seems it will take more than merely *knowledge* or
*awareness*

Larry





On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Andrew Coppens <acoppens@ucsc.edu> wrote:

> Hi Martin,
> Thanks for making this connection. Your question at the end is close to my
> thinking on the issue. I would just add that for me the question isn't so
> much about preparation for the classroom, but the extent to which these
> children in Los Angeles are in a sense already participating in it. It
> sounds like you might agree with me in thinking that how children
> contribute is perhaps more consequential for learning/development than how
> much (how much often being the salient feature in studies of children's
> work).
>
> Jacqueline Goodnow has some great work on this in middle-class Anglo
> Australian families. Like Ochs, she finds that children's contributions to
> household work in these communities are largely bound to personal domains
> of responsibility and that those domains are delimited by fairness
> principles: children are responsible for things they "own" (their things,
> spaces, messes). One of my favorite examples of hers calls attention to
> what's communicated to children what parents say "Who got these things
> out?" - a veiled directive to clean up that chops up responsibility into
> chores that only certain family members own. Not only does the directive
> preclude children's initiative to some extent, but it communicates norms of
> accountability and "rules of engagement." Coincidentally, there's a nice
> dovetail in this example with Ochs' earlier work on language socialization.
>
> I think these in-home practices that reproduce domains of responsibility
> and accountability easily compare to many classroom settings. Myself and
> others are looking into cross-cultural variation in "fairness" and
> initiative in a study underway.
>
> ---
> Andrew D. Coppens
> www.andrewcoppens.com
>
>
>
>
>  On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > I just today came across a report of Elinor Och's recent work on
> > initiative and responsibility in Southern California:
> >
> > "Dr. Ochs, who began her career in far-off regions of the world studying
> > the concept of "baby talk," noticed that American children seemed
> > relatively helpless compared with those in other cultures she and
> > colleagues had observed.
> >
> > "In those cultures, young children were expected to contribute
> > substantially to the community, says Dr. Ochs. Children in Samoa serve
> food
> > to their elders, waiting patiently in front of them before they eat, as
> > shown in one video snippet. Another video clip shows a girl around 5
> years
> > of age in Peru's Amazon region climbing a tall tree to harvest papaya,
> and
> > helping haul logs thicker than her leg to stoke a fire.
> >
> > "By contrast, the U.S. videos showed Los Angeles parents focusing more on
> > the children, using simplified talk with them, doing most of the
> housework
> > and intervening quickly when the kids had trouble completing a task.
> >
> > "In 22 of 30 families, children frequently ignored or resisted appeals to
> > help, according to a study published in the journal Ethos in 2009. In the
> > remaining eight families, the children weren't asked to do much. In some
> > cases, the children routinely asked the parents to do tasks, like getting
> > them silverware. "How am I supposed to cut my food?" Dr. Ochs recalls one
> > girl asking her parents."
> >
> > Would you imagine that these kids are, ironically, being well prepared
> for
> > the school classroom?
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2012, at 7:18 PM, Andrew Coppens wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Michael and others,
> > > This is my first time replying from the digest, so apologies if I break
> > the
> > > thread. I've abridged most of the digest.
> > >
> > > This is a fascinating analysis to me, and one that overlaps with some
> of
> > > the work I'm doing to try to understand children's initiative in paying
> > > attention and making contributions to on-going endeavors in
> > > Indigenous-heritage communities of the Americas. Dewey (1916) has a
> nice
> > > way of distinguishing between two forms of imitation that I think is
> > > relevant to this thread:
> > >
> > > "[The child/student] imitates the means because he wishes, on his own
> > > behalf, as part of his own initiative, to take an effective part [in a
> > > shared endeavor]…imitation of ends, as distinct from imitation of means
> > > which help to reach ends, is a superficial and transitory affair which
> > > leaves little effect upon disposition... It affects outward acts but
> not
> > > the meaning of their performance.….Imitation of means of accomplishment
> > is…
> > > an intelligent act. It involves close observation, and judicious
> > selection
> > > of what will enable one to do better something which he already is
> trying
> > > to do. (pp. 35-36)"
> > >
> > > When students' attention/participation is placed under rule-based
> > > constraint that serves adult-determined instructional purposes - a
> > pattern
> > > I find myself reproducing by default in much of my teaching -
> initiative
> > in
> > > engaging with possible ends and possible meanings might be nudged out
> as
> > an
> > > option for students. This initiative seems to powerfully drive
> > > children's/student's learning precisely because it involves agentic and
> > > intentional engagement in shared goals. By the time students are in our
> > > university classes, they've likely been through years of schooling in
> > which
> > > they are more-or-less handed "ends"/motives/objects by teachers and
> > > grade-driven instructional situations. It's perhaps not surprising then
> > > that students don't do what their instructors would like right away
> when
> > > given the freedom to make their own choices. Give me a day off of work,
> > and
> > > I might spend it sitting on the couch (or catching up on Facebook).
> Give
> > me
> > > a week off of work, and I just might find my way back to the parts of
> my
> > > work that are meaningful to me for my own reasons.
> > >
> > > On another note, there is a fair amount of research on cultural
> patterns
> > of
> > > *simultaneous* attention as contrasted with *alternating* attention.
> > Rogoff
> > > and colleagues have contributed some of this evidence. Many
> communities,
> > in
> > > which children are consistently integrated into on-going events as
> > > meaningful contributors to shared family/community endeavors, seem to
> > > support children's simultaneous attention to on-going events. The
> > practices
> > > associated with Western schooling in particular seem to encourage
> > attention
> > > alternation. Some food for thought on the idea that it's either
> Facebook
> > or
> > > the lecture; for some students it might be both at once.
> > >
> > > Thanks for sparking some initiative on the part of another lurker.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > ---
> > > Andrew D. Coppens
> > > www.andrewcoppens.com
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >> Message: 13
> > >>
> > > Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:36:29 -0400
> > >> From: "Michael Glassman" <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
> > >> Subject: RE: [xmca] adult affordances
> > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >>       <
> B33131190AB080468C8D5FA5DBCD4EFD789563@helios.hec.ohio-state.edu
> > >
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >>
> > >> So here's the punchline,
> > >>
> > >> When I first started doing this it was a disaster and I got really
> angry
> > >> at the graduate student who suggested it.   I was constantly losing
> the
> > >> students and was feeling frustrated, feeling I was competing with all
> > these
> > >> devices.  But I also met pretty regularly with that graduate student
> and
> > >> another discussing a number of issues about the Internet, which I have
> > >> become really interested in, but was born too late to really have the
> > >> perspective of a "digital native."   It would be funny sitting
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Message: 14
> > >> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:47:09 -0400
> > >> From: "Michael Glassman" <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
> > >> Subject: RE: [xmca] adult affordances
> > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >>       <
> B33131190AB080468C8D5FA5DBCD4EFD789564@helios.hec.ohio-state.edu
> > >
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >>
> > >> Sorry, don't know how this got sent early,
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, it would be funny sitting with the two students who would both
> > >> have their computer and smartphone and ipad all laid out in front of
> > them
> > >> and during our discussion things would be rinings and buzzing.
> Slowly
> > I
> > >> started to understand both through discussion and experience the
> > rhythms of
> > >> their experience, which I hypothesize has changed in this new
> > technology,
> > >> and we discussed how to incorporate that into the classroom teaching.
> > >> Things starting getting a lot better, or at least I became less
> > frustrated.
> > >>  We have entrance and exit blog posts for the class - the blog being a
> > >> central tool in the class.  The last two classes the students have
> > almost
> > >> universally described how at first they would just go to their
> Facebook
> > >> page, but as the class went on - usually sometime around the third
> week
> > for
> > >> many students, they would start to turn their attention back to what
> was
> > >> happening in class - and they went much deeper into what was being
> said,
> > >> because it was their attention, t
> > >> heir choice, their interest.  They might start googling what was being
> > >> talked about, finding their own information, their own sources, which
> > they
> > >> would post on the blog.   Then they got a real kick from teaching and
> > >> learning from each other.   I probably never got 100 percent or even
> 75
> > of
> > >> their attention, but I doubt I had it anyway.  But to quote Spencer
> > Tracy,
> > >> "What I got was choice."
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 8
> > > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:33:33 -0400
> > > From: "Michael Glassman" <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] adult affordances
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Message-ID:
> > >       <
> B33131190AB080468C8D5FA5DBCD4EFD789562@helios.hec.ohio-state.edu>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > Hi Larry, Martin, Adam,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the great post Adam.  A couple of years ago under the
> tutelate
> > > of a graduate student I had all students in my class bring the laptop
> and
> > > keep it open.  I told them they don't have to be listening to
> everything
> > I
> > > say, they could be on Facebook or they can text or twitter.   They
> didn't
> > > have to hide it from me.   My students were shocked.   No, no, this
> can't
> > > be happening.  Every other class is a battle against this new
> technology.
> > > I told them a story about when I was in college lo these many years
> ago.
> > > I took a class in Russian literature with someone who was considered
> one
> > of
> > > the great professors on the subject in the country - not just as a
> > scholar
> > > but as a teacher.  And he was amazing, and passionate, and caring, and
> > one
> > > of the two or three best professors I ever had.  I would go to class
> and
> > > dutifully open up my notebook and focus my attention on the professor.
> > My
> > > eyes never wavered but my mind certainly did.   A little while into the
> > > class I would start th
> > > inking, "Hmmm, what's for lunch" and then, "I wonder what I should do
> > > tonight".  Oh I would get pulled back to the class again and again, I
> > > remember him waving his arm and shouting,   "And think of the scene of
> > > Napoleon riding into Moscow and his men cheering and the subtle irony
> in
> > > the scene and what lies ahead."  I saw in my mind the soldiers
> gathering
> > > around their beloved emperor, but among them was this woman Lori who I
> > > wondered if I should ask to eat with me at the dining hall that night.
> > > That is the way our mind works, jumping from point to point, and there
> > is a
> > > method to the madness of our minds, the jumps are meaningful and
> perhaps
> > > keep us in the game.   The idea that anybody is paying attention to
> > anybody
> > > one hundred percent of the time is pretense and the idea that even the
> > most
> > > vibrant speaker has control over another's thoughts is an illusion that
> > > gives the speaker warmth.   The Facebook, the texting, the cell phones,
> > all
> > > of it, just outward manifestations of w
> > > hat our minds have been doing all along anyway.  Come one, be honest,
> how
> > > many reading this were thinking for a little while about their next
> snack
> > > or perhaps checking Netflix.  Technology has finally caught up to our
> > minds.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > >> End of xmca Digest, Vol 82, Issue 13
> > >> ************************************
> > >>
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