Re: [xmca] Death and dying

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Human life IS awkward, David, Just that way, And Bateson knew it.
i surmise.
mike

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> So he believed that the words were the outcome of a "pattern of thought"?
> andy
>
> David H Kirshner wrote:
>
>> Damn good question!
>> He must, somehow, have noticed that it wasn't really the WORDS that he
>> wanted to eradicate, but rather the patterns of THOUGHT that spawned the
>> words. How awkward.
>> David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:37 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Death and dying
>>
>> Why didn't he just give himself an electric shock each time he spoke the
>> word 'mind'? It shouldn't have been a struggle at all!
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2012, at 5:59 PM, David H Kirshner wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> A few years ago, Eva Ekeblad sent me a paper she had mentioned on XMCA
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> about Skinner's struggle to purge his own language of mentalist
>>> assumptions. Seems like a nice counterpart to Bateson's efforts to avoid
>>> the language of separateness.
>>> David
>>> Ekeblad, E. (1996). A lifetime of verbal discipline. Revision of a paper
>>> presented to the Nordic Association of Education Research, 1994.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> ]
>>> On Behalf Of Christine Schweighart
>>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 4:47 PM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Death and dying
>>>
>>> Apologies Greg,
>>> It was Bateson speaking and not von Glaserfeld!
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=zTsY3TosVX0&feature=related<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTsY3TosVX0&feature=related>
>>>
>>>
>>> This aside I wondered if you might be interested to consider the
>>> aesthetic of Garcia Lorca writing on the social meaning of death in Spanish
>>> culture, it seems quite relevant to your topic.
>>> Christine.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Greg Thompson
>>> <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>**wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is a flipside to "gaps" that suggests that a gapless world. This
>>>>      position is nicely captured by Gregory Bateson (please forgive my
>>>> transcription by intonation unit - Bateson's prose is hard to capture,
>>>>      but see link below for original):
>>>>
>>>> "The nature of
>>>>
>>>> the world in which I live
>>>>
>>>> and in which I wish you lived -
>>>>
>>>> all of you -
>>>>
>>>> and all the time -
>>>>
>>>> but even I don't live in it all the time.
>>>>
>>>> (solemnly) There are times,
>>>>
>>>> when I catch myself believing
>>>>
>>>> that there is such a thing as something
>>>>
>>>> which is separate from something else."
>>>>
>>>> And linking back to General Semantics (and Corey Anton is both
>>>> affiliated with General Semantics and has written much on Bateson), Bateson
>>>> was influenced by Korzybski (see Bateson's Korzybski memorial
>>>>
>>>>
>>> lecture at:
>>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.generalsemantics.**org/wp-content/uploads/2011/**
>>>> 04/gsb-37-bat<http://www.generalsemantics.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/gsb-37-bat>
>>>> e
>>>> son.pdf
>>>> and
>>>> Bateson's quote above is taken from a blog announcing the new
>>>> biographical movie of GB by Nora Bateson, the website can be seen at:
>>>> http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/**catalog/emind.html<http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/emind.html>
>>>> ).
>>>> And linking further back to Korzybski's view of why things go wrong in
>>>>      the world, Bateson writes that:
>>>>
>>>> "The major problems in the world are the result of the difference
>>>> between how nature works and the way people think."
>>>>
>>>> It would seem that Bateson is pointing to gap-filling as the problem
>>>> that creates the mismatch between word and world. Does that seem about
>>>>      right to others? Is there a tension here between the gap filling
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Etienne and Mike describe as something that we do all the time and what
>>>> Bateson seems to be suggesting about a (preferred) gapless
>>>>
>>>>
>>> world?
>>
>>
>>> Am I headed in endless circles here or is there an interesting question
>>>> at this particular intersection? Or is my way of linking both
>>>>      of these positions filling in (or not) too many gaps?
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>> -greg
>>>>
>>>> p.s. C.S. Peirce, may have articulated a fuller conception in his
>>>> notion of "synechism," but Bateson's is certainly more comprehensible
>>>>
>>>>
>>> and artful.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Peirce's vision is a lot more difficult to take in. But I'd add that he
>>>> has a wonderful notion of "self" that extends beyond the body and
>>>>
>>>>
>>> beyond life.
>>>
>>>
>>>> We are "vicinities" "neighborhoods" rather than discretely bounded
>>>>
>>>>
>>> bodies.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Anthony
>>>>>
>>>>> The topic of death and the social formation of mind seems to be the
>>>>> ultimate form of "gap & gap filling" which gives meaning to life.
>>>>> I'm reading an article by Corey Anton titled "Beyond Theoretical
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Ethics:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bakhtinian Anti-Theoreticism" [in Human Studies volume 24, pages
>>>>> 211-225; 2001] This is what Corey has to say about death and our unique
>>>>> once-occurant dwelling in the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The position that I am trying to make clear is that the human 'in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> general'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> does not factually exist and that ethical considerations commonly
>>>>> posit a general human: they posit a 'someone' who is ACTUALLY no one.  In
>>>>> this regard, their universality implicitly suggets that people are
>>>>> basically interchangeable or not non-replaceable - not uniquely held by
>>>>> their place in existence.  The 'theoretical world is obtained through an
>>>>> essential
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> fundamental abstraction from the factor of my unique being and from
>>>>> the moral sense of that fact - AS IF I did not exist' (Bahktin).
>>>>> This theoretical world can deeply mislead, for I never do not exist in
>>>>> my
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> life;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I am never unnecessary or irrelevant, and it is only theoretical
>>>>> positing that can make this seem to be so. (Leder) suggests that one's
>>>>> lived body
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> '
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> is never just an object in the world but that very medium whereby our
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> world
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> comes into being.'  Thus, I may, in one sense, be simply one person
>>>>> among other persons in the world that will go on without me AFTER MY
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> DEATH.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> yet, I am, for me, that person who is never not there, that person who
>>>>> somehow is ALWAYS co-given along with the world, and that person
>>>>>        whose world falls out of existence WITH MY DEATH. [page 215]
>>>>>
>>>>> Anthony, Corey is pointing to death as the ulimate "gap" and our
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> humanness
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> as the process of gap-filling within our once-occurent unique cultural
>>>>> historical existence.  The social formation of mind develops through
>>>>> differentiation and distanciation [gaps] AND the integrating
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> [gap-filling]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ACTS (including theoretical acts)  of our humanness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 5:45 AM, ANTHONY M BARRA <tub80742@temple.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the resources, Huw and Andy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Nektarios Alexi
>>>>>> <NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au>**wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thats an excellent book Huw!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd
>>>>>>> Sent: Wed 2/1/2012 9:43 PM
>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Death and dying
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bakhtin's "Dostoevsky's Poetics" has a few indexed references.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 31 January 2012 16:46, ANTHONY M BARRA <tub80742@temple.edu>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  I'm looking for Vygostky's, or Vygotskian, words on death and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dying,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  especially terms of (but not limited to) "the social formation
>>>>>>>>              of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mind,"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and "mind extending beyond the skin."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for any direction or help...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anthony
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Department of Communication
>>>> University of California, San Diego ______________________________**
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>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
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