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Re: [xmca] Lave and McDermott and 'values'
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- Subject: Re: [xmca] Lave and McDermott and 'values'
- From: Haydi Zulfei <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:19:37 +0000 (GMT)
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- Reply-to: Haydi Zulfei <email@example.com>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Sender: email@example.com
If you consider it useful to continue ... There's no pushing especially with a HARD one . You see / everybody sees I'm no NAME / PROFILE ... Thus there's a WILL to learn from ... Therefore I need patience from my interlocutor ! The articles were voted for . Meanwhile , I just finished reading your article for the ... time .
--I wonder if the present words are replies to my SECOND message (below) . seems I have problems with the "sender" issue : if it goes to the sender alone or plus the xmca .
--This is yours :
[[A CHAT perspective views
mathematical activity as social, and as collective, joint “object-oriented”activity.]]
--This is the definition which is usually and predominantly tied with the name A.N.LEONTIEV .
--And this is your recent reply :
[[... doesn't the
'school-learner' shape their 'goals' (eg of doing maths/history etc)
with their valueing of 'schooling' ... this I called a 'projection of
the (subjects) values into the goals... (I study the history text
because it is on the exam and I 'need' a good grade')
- and yet potentially find new values (I become interested and 'need' to
discover why history is 'interesting'...) through the new motives for
--Julian ! When you say you've reached/not reached the conclusion of the exploitative outcome of "Learning"/Learning or have found/not found the analogy between "work"/"learning" and work/learning appropriate , the reader expects your clearing of the 6 nodes we find in Engestrom's Third Generation Version and their application to the content of the subject you've selected . Especially that you want to probe the claim through this vein/procedure . Now if we can find this idea in the other article you name . would you mind please attaching that to your next reply .
--I know Leontiev is criticized for his so-called disregard for the full realization of the idea of AGENCY in his theory . Now I wonder if by "projection of a chosen ethical general value from the con. onto the object of the activity" , you want to make up for that weakness in Leontevian theory ?? In this regard , I had some other clear questions yet unanswered .
--Notwithstanding the EMPIRICALNESS of your research , you are passing through a duality of conclusion : exploitation/non-exploitation might be the case : use-pleasure versus value-boredom-belabouring .
--You know very well about the functions of the UNIONS and AVANT-GARDE parties/groups . Why ? b.c. the poor worker might be satisfied with the ongoing of his subsistence . It's not the case that she always knows that she's exploited/alienated/bought and sold . The whole DILEMMA revolves around this POINT . And it's the same with a poor learner . It's our talk about an HIERARCHY of an SOCIO-ECONOMIC formations that works . Yes , "I study b.c. in the future ... so on and so forth ..." But is this a MOTIVE towards an ACTIVITY . I doubt . It seems to be a vague tendency on the part of the Learner . What percentage of these armies of learners know they will be killing off or vitalizing and for what and to what end ?
--If it's a matter of INTERVIEWS : Here we're not talking about the Vygotskian BASIC courses and if they contribute to a general understanding of other courses . I'd like to stress on the PERSONAL SENSE and when it emerges . The variation of Learners' tendencies towards this course or that course is not the battlefield in which classes struggle and fight . Followers of this course go to this class ; those of that course to that one . What matters is if the dynamics of EXPLOITATION is understood or believed in . History being INTERESTING could be one step towards gaining PERSONAL SENSE (hierarchy dictates a rush towards Math for social prestige and forces it to get a uniform shape) . The full step is when she says she wants to study HISTORY b.c. she has reached the idea that blood-thirsty exploiters have rendered its colour RED . And such a Learner might get thrown out of the school as Einstein were ?!
[[You push me hard for
the relation of 'values' and 'idealised/perceived NEEDS'... I think
maybe it goes like this: I give a subjective value to any activity I
engage in, maybe distinct values for different activities, ( Leontiev
implies this constitutes the 'personality'; shifts in valuations of
activities equates to 'development' of personality?)]]
--What I gather from Leontiev is MOTIVES could be PROMOTIONAL . In our example of an interest in History , a promotion could gain as to getting sacrificed for the CAUSE OF MANKIND . It is a sublimation of motives , if not mistaken , more environmental / social than hereditary . Tonight Che Guivara's life is on and I cannot watch it b.c. I'm busy writing this . That was , by any definition , an semi-global or regional activity , like those who died for Spain . The goal and cause was clear/conscious . The action was to go to Bolivia . The condition required an OPERATION OF MASKED PENETRATION . And the finality was also crystal clear . Leontiev implies this constitutes the 'personality' -- repetion of yours ; why not ? But this happened after many many events and activities got being reified and a GOAL being gradually clarified (Leontiev comes with a quote from Goethe) . No , I didn't push for equalizing 'values' and 'idealized/perceived NEEDS' ; I stressed
on your taking them to be identical . I said you overburdened the MOTIVE supposing having aroused spontaneously before with another external imposing MOTIVE which for you came from another world of CULTURAL / ETHICAL VALUES other than the MATERIAL WORLD we're living in .
From: Julian Williams <firstname.lastname@example.org>
To: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <email@example.com>
Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2011, 8:16:25
Subject: RE: [xmca] Lave and McDermott and 'values'
Andy - yes: I meant the dialetic in the sense of Leontiev as I understood him, who (I believe) looked to the action/goal as being in contradiction to the social activity/motive; as I understood he sees this as the source of development of significant, new motives and goals, and so for instance development of the adolescent personality (I usually draw on his example of the student of history within the context of 'schooling-for-exams' who nevertheless may come to find the history as 'interesting in itself' and find this new motive for the study (perhaps even discovering its true social motive). Andy I know you are a keen student of Hegel (with whose work I struggle) and this might be a Leontiev (Marx?) version of 'dialectics' - I think it implies 'movement' of the consciousness (es), of the goals, and of the activity all at once?
Haydi Ive lost your thread but gone an d copy-pasted it to the below, and I think this is still relevant to your line of thought?
... doesn't the 'school-learner' shape their 'goals' (eg of doing maths/history etc) with their valueing of 'schooling' ... this I called a 'projection of the (subjects) values into the goals... (I study the history text because it is on the exam and I 'need' a good grade')
- and yet potentially find new values (I become interested and 'need' to discover why history is 'interesting'...) through the new motives for studying?
You push me hard for the relation of 'values' and 'idealised/perceived NEEDS'... I think maybe it goes like this: I give a subjective value to any activity I engage in, maybe distinct values for different activities, ( Leontiev implies this constitutes the 'personality'; shifts in valuations of activities equates to 'development' of personality?)
From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: 08 November 2011 01:58
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Lave and McDermott and 'values'
Julian, I don't think it is useful to say that this and that are "in
dialectical relation with" each other or other things. Except explicitly
as posing a problem to be solved. It leaves the question of exactly
*what* relation that is. Otherwise, if you just identify this and that,
and make some claim about their relation, then ipso facto they are *not*
in dialectical relation to one other. I would say that
"activity/actions" (or praxis or practice) differ from "behaviour"
because these concepts are both subjective and objective, that is, the
concept of action includes the intentions as well as the mechanical
movement. It contains an internal contradiction, because what we mean is
not always how we behave. "Behavior is a concept of mechnical movement
of the body which is abstracted from consciousness and is inclusive of
autonomous nervous activity as well as (intentional) actions. Likewise
"goal" and "activity". The goal is an emergent moment of an activity,
otherwise we have an abstract general (sociological) concept of
activity, not a dialectical concept at all: we take a goal and an
activity and then stick them together and claim that they are "in
dialectical relation with" one another. Likewise again, an activity is
nothing other than the aggregate of actions. That means internally
contradictory relations within activity, which are comprehended under
the notion of "an activity."
Does that make sense?
Julian Williams wrote:
> My use of 'project/ion' (I find I use this quite often, even though I don't know if it's in Vygotsky or Ilyenkov) is meant to imply that consciousness Is not just a reflection of action/activity, but also a source of goals and so of action. (Actually I understand CHAT-Marx to imply that consciousness is in dialectical relation with other moments of activity.)
Thanks you replied .
--All MY POINTS came from Leontevian Activity Theory . If I was mistaken , I should have been warned .
--Incidentally , No.1 is not ruled out b.c. I didn't take your VALUES for MORAL,ETHICAL,HUMAN values . The pivot of the three articles is MARXIAN exploitation . That was why I ruled out the idea that by VALUES you meant universal ethical ones . I hope you are not among those who say Marxism is inhuman unless it is humanized .
--Plz see if this time I understand you . You face a REAL TASK AT HAND (treble emphasis) ; you want to resolve it ; you call on the CONSCIOUSNESS ; out of the con. , you choose a VALUE which is for you the same as an IDEAL (spiritual) need ; Then , you project this chosen value onto the object of your activity .
a. I think in the context you depict , a REAL TASK AT HAND could equal what we mean by OPERATION ====>CONDITION rather than THE ACTIVITY PROPER . What I can think of is to depict : the capitalist HIERARCHY favours and intrigues the institutes towards a destructive competition . Our supposed institute concentrates on gaining the satisfaction of the parents for more contributions and assistance . ACTIVITY . The goal chosen/reached is the enhancing/doing of the MATH COURSE .
b. When you say you choose and then project a value onto the object of the activity , does not that mean that your world of VALUES is different and separate from your world of ACTIVITIES ? Then how can activity be a molar non-additive process of life circle ? let alone we read we have three moments NOT including consciousness or six moments (a la Engestrom) ; though I believe Engestrom's Micro-social activities accords more with kind of adaptational and co-existing trend with Capitalism rather than bringing forth a MACRO-SOCIAL TRANSFORMATION of the whole system . It seems as if IN THE PROCESS OF LIVING needs whether material or spiritual , vital or non-vital , arise spontaneously . Are not needs felt but not thought out ? And Davydov pushes it further by the use of DESIRE .
does CONSCIOUSNESS COME FROM ? How does the PREDISPOSITION OF VALUES take place (dialectics presupposed) ? Thanks Andy for his exegesis of dialectics .
--Leontiev himself also talks of different intentions and ideas within the heads of the students when he discusses PERSONAL SENSE in detail . This is on the SYMBOLIC side of a social movement . And he emphasizes that we should , in a final count , rely on what passes behind the SYMBOLS . For the hierarchy of Capitalistic society , the GOAL , as long as it is a goal not getting converted into an activity or operation , remains unique : doing math for the satisfaction of the parents for more contributions and assistance (you exemplified Greece today) . The CONCRETE aspect of the movement might take place within the UNIONS OR FACTORIES and these two might , of necessity , get unified . This unification on its SYMBOLIC side must come from the PERSONAL SENSES different learners get in spite of all efforts the institute makes to drag the mentality of all the learners towards the realization of the SOCIAL MEANING , that is , doing math for the satisfaction
and assistance . Leontiev says with grades learners get , the social meaning is A REWARD FOR AN EFFORT which is common to all . In our example , the social meaning is doing math for promotional status or remedial outcome . I want to conclude that if as you say "we cannot presume that a classroom is engaged in collective activity just because a collection of people sit together in one classroom with a teacher" , in the same vein , we cannot say our class is engaged in an activity proper because each of them is perceiving an IDEAL NEED in his head or psyche especially if the feeling of that need leads to the isolation of one or some learners . What matters for us here is the regulation of a micro-socialistic goal and activity which parallels the macro-socialistic (hierarchy) trend of an capitalistic EXPLOITATION .
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