Re: [xmca] Activity and interpsychological aspects of CHAT

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Andy
Yes, the "ideas" are like horse drawn carriages but the intensity of the
motivations and relational dynamics generated within these various debates
on the "force" of these various "genres" is what I still see being replayed
through re-collections that loose sight of being re-collections not "truth"
Also psychodynamics must move beyond 2 person plus genre debates but this is
happening in some arenas.

Larry

Larry
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:56 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Sure, there is a relational turn in psychoanalysis, and Donald Winnicott's
> "transitional object" explicitly introduces mediation, but to me, these are
> a bit like horse drawn carriages, if you get my meaning.
>
> Andyh
>
> Larry Purss wrote:
>
>> Hi Andy
>> I want to give a concrete idea of mediation in contrast to billiard balls
>> [from psycoanalysis]
>> Freud was commited to a "scientific" billiard ball version of psychology.
>> His ediface was HIS having discovered THE truth with a topological map of id
>> ego and superego.  He was totally invested in this particular "genre" or
>> "text" and took the position of being an "expert" [having knowledge OF] that
>> he USED to GIVE insight to others [in the form of the genre.
>>  Ferenzci, who is often seen as a source of the "relational" turn in
>> psychoanalysis, in contrast had a different relationship TO psychoanalysis
>> [as a genre].  He saw the person [client] and the [genre] in mutual
>> relationship and he was in a position to "mediate" between the genre or text
>> and the person. A mediational triangle [2 person and one genre] You can
>> imagine the tensions that were generated between Freud and Ferenzci with
>> this different relationship to "truth" and "mediation"
>>  My question is if there are various relations that can be operationalized
>> in relation to dialectical materialism as "truth" or as a "genre" with a
>> developmental/historical geneology?  Mike C. mentioned he believes we are
>> currently re-collecting the various genres or texts that were previously
>> played out in the last few centuries.  I agree, and we loose sight of the
>> historical sources of these contrasting genres [that were formed within
>> particular social organizations]  We can start with the genres or we can
>> start with the social organization or we start with the way persons mediate
>> between the social relations & genres [spaces of ????] Mediation as
>> KNOWLEDGEABILITY [in contrast to knowledge]
>>  Larry
>>
>>
>>   On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>    Haydi, when the Frankfurt School began in 1923, and set up their
>>    "Communist University," their aim was to have all the different
>>    disciplines working together, in particular philosophers,
>>    sociologists and psychologists. Things in Germany didn't work out
>>    so well, and that program never really got going. Having
>>    philosophers and sociologists and psychologists appropriating each
>>    others' work remained a goal though. However, the Frankfurters
>>    were philosophers, and never got beyond Freud and Mead in
>>    psychology. The current generation of Critical Theorists are
>>    absorbed in using scraps of Mead and Freud together with a
>>    Hegel-without-mediation (build on the master-servant relation). As
>>    a result, they see social life as a kind of billiard table, just
>>    like liberals do, and in fact Habermas is now in 100% agreement
>>    with John Rawls.
>>
>>    Hegel and Vygotsky have in common many things but in particular
>>    they share an understanding of the importance of mediation. It is
>>    mediation which provides mechanism of how social theory can and
>>    must be based in psychology and vice versa. But the thing is that
>>    it is not enough to operate with generalisations like this. The
>>    original program of the Frankfurt School mean that critical theory
>>    has to draw on the /real practical and empirical knowledge of
>>    psychologists/, not just specualtive theory. So it is vitally
>>    important for us who are interested in social change, politics and
>>    revolution to listen to what the real, hand-on, practical, working
>>    psychologists are talking about.
>>
>>
>>    OK?
>>
>>    Andy
>>
>>    Haydi Zulfei wrote:
>>
>>        Andy ! Thank you for the short lead . Flattering aside , I've
>>        always seen you do your best to put things on right track if
>>        deviated . This way principles are secured rather than
>>        compromised . I do know I need more and more readings .
>>        However , one at times feels we're moving along two extremes .
>>        However , I'm almost known to your investigation of "project"
>>        . I'm sure others , too , are expecting more to come .
>>        Best
>>        Haydi
>>
>>        ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>>        *From:* Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>
>>        *To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>        <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>
>>        *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 October 2011, 3:45:25
>>        *Subject:* Re: [xmca] Activity and interpsychological aspects
>>        of CHAT
>>
>>
>>        Hajdi, I will limit my comments to why I praise Vygotsky as a
>>        great Marxist, and at the same time I claim that my main
>>        interest is in social
>>        change, and not learning or psychological problems as such.
>>
>>        It is true that Vygotsky never ventured into the domain of
>>        social theory
>>        as such. I think the problems facing anyone wanting to do that in
>>        Stalin's USSR were very great, whether they were loyal to the
>>        Party or
>>        not. But he laid the foundations. He showed how consciousness
>>        is formed
>>        in a person's interactions. The wider society participates
>>        directly in
>>        an individual's interactions because we must use products of
>>        the culture
>>        in everything we do, we do not invent a language when we meet
>>        someone,
>>        we use the existing language, and everything else the culture
>>        provides.
>>        Vygotsky lacked one thing, in my view, that is the source of
>>        motivation
>>        for actions, which, as AN Leontyev correctly showed, lies in the
>>        activity of which our action is a part. But in following ANL
>>        in studying
>>        activities, I prefer to retain the methodological core of
>>        Vygotsky's
>>        work (which ANL did not, in my view) and take the activity as
>>        a unit of
>>        analysis. This is of course exactly what ANL claimed to have
>>        achieved,
>>        but I think he did not really understand this concept of unit of
>>        analysis, and his analysis suffered from problems as a result.
>>        Engestrom
>>        set out to address these problems. Some of them he resolved,
>>        but I think
>>        in other ways, he moved further away from a solution. These
>>        are all open
>>        questions. But my aim is to reconstruct an Activity Theory
>>        which is more
>>        true to the foundations laid by Vygotsky. The purpose of such an
>>        activity theory is to fight capitalism and make a better
>>        world, that's all.
>>
>>        OK?
>>
>>        Andy
>>
>>        Haydi Zulfei wrote:
>>        >
>>        >
>>        > ______________________________**__
>>        > From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>        <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>
>>        <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>**>
>>        > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>        <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>
>>        <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>>
>>        > Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 16:16:53
>>        > Subject: [xmca] Activity and interpsychological aspects of CHAT
>>        >
>>        >
>>        > Hi Haydi
>>        >
>>        >
>>        > I'm responding to your concern that activity and the larger
>>        macro level is
>>        >
>>        > being overshadowed by the more personal and
>>        interpsychological aspects of
>>        >
>>        > CHAT.
>>        >
>>        > **1.
>>        > a. Andy , besides his other activities is the editor of the
>>        MCA . He said in his view Vygotsky was a GREAT marxist .
>>        > b. I repeat the Activity Theory , to all evidence , has its
>>        roots in Marxism .
>>        > c. I emphasized on distinguishing between "individual" and
>>        "personal" in discussing  CHAT .
>>        > d. Yes , I believe [[...I believe activity (proper) and the
>>        larger macro level is being overshadowed by the more
>>        (individual)and interpsychological aspects of CHAT . ]]
>>        >
>>        > You should have heard about the "leading activity" and the
>>        corresponding hiararchy of motives . Usually , discussion
>>        focuses on "any" activity ; leaving the macro-social aside ,
>>        discussing what happens within the sphere of hygiene , let's
>>        say , while every pollution and
>>        > corruption is downstreaming from the top in a global capitalist
>>        > formation .
>>        >
>>        >  Leontyev himself ansers no need to quote Wertsch : "  A
>>        division of the function of sense formation
>>        > and simple stimulation between motives of one and the same
>>        activity makes it
>>        > possible to understand the principal relationships
>>        characterizing the
>>        > motivational sphere of personality: the relationships of the
>>        hierarchy of motives.This hierarchy is not in the least
>>        constructed on a
>>        > scale of their proximity to the vital (biological) needs in
>>        a way similar to
>>        > that which Maslow, for
>>        > example, imagines: [1.The
>>        > necessity for maintaining physiological homeostasis is the
>>        basis for the
>>        > hierarchy; the motives for self-preservation are higher,
>>        next, 3.confidence and prestige; finally, at the top of
>>        > the hierarchy, motives of 4.cognition
>>        > and aesthetics]. The principal problem that arises here is
>>        not to what
>>        > extent the given scale (or another similar to it) is right
>>        but how proper the
>>        > principle of such scaling is in itself. The fact is that
>>        neither the degree of
>>        > proximity to biological needs nor the degree of capacity to
>>        stimulate nor the
>>        > affectiveness of one motive or another determines the
>>        hierarchical relationship
>>        > between them. These
>>        > relationships are determined by the connections that the
>>        activity of the
>>        > subject brings about, by their mediations, and for this
>>        reason, they are
>>        > relative. This refers also to the principal correlation - to the
>>        > correlation between sense-forming
>>        > motives and motive-stimuli." **
>>        >
>>        >
>>        > I must accept my part in turning the conversations in this
>>        direction
>>        >
>>        > as my curiosity does orient more to the interpsychological
>>        aspects of
>>        >
>>        > cultural historical theory.
>>        >
>>        > **2. Yes , quite true ! You're quite free to forget about
>>        all principles of the ideology of Vygotsky and the TROIKA AND
>>        THE PYATERKA , Davydov , etc. down to V.P.Zinchndo Junior who
>>        has begun to repudiate His father's findings and whom Mike ,
>>        as Guest  Editor of JREEP , has talked about and brought forth
>>        some of His writings . But one thing is crucial : By orienting
>>        on "interpsychological" , you jump then to "intersubjectivity"
>>        and "agency" and begin to discuss in a way as if agency is
>>        determined within intersubjectivity . Just plz answer how in
>>        what way within intersubjectivity in the absence of any
>>        activity and action . an agentive element rises up ; in other
>>        words just at the level of "semiotics" and without furthering
>>        up to the all interactions and upheavals and incidences ,
>>        events , if one can reach the powerfulness of beginning to act
>>        which satisfies an urgent or distant need . Dialogue  could be
>>        most effective while in the direction of a goal
>>        >  chosen for the action and in the direction of an activity
>>        most important at any moment which the social relations
>>        dictates . **
>>        >
>>        >
>>        >  Wertsch writing about Leontiev suggests his
>>        >
>>        > focus was on how it is possible to assimilate the
>>        "experience of mankind" as
>>        >
>>        > a foundation for building activity theory grounded in Marx's
>>        ideas about
>>        >
>>        > subject-object interaction.
>>        >
>>        > **In my last message , I referred to this point and there is
>>        enough in the quote above about this matter . The passage I
>>        sent which was confirmed as related to the perezhivanie also
>>        has enough to say about that . Then no more discussion . **
>>        >
>>        >
>>        >  Wertsch suggests that Leontiev's notion of
>>        >
>>        > activity does extend Vygotsky's focus on the
>>        inteprsychological to the macro
>>        >
>>        > account of social interaction.
>>        >
>>        > **No , Let's never forget that the title of Vygotsky's
>>        MAGNUM OPUS is "Thinking and Speech" . And if he was and is a
>>        great marxist , he knows that speech is born withing the
>>        process of Labour requiring a tool . And I said about the
>>        hiararchy of MOTIVES and that even this same hiararchy is
>>        bound to subordinate itself to the requirements of ACTIVITY .
>>        Activity is Molar and non-divisible in regard to its MOMENTS . **
>>        >
>>        >
>>        >  Wertsch acknowledges this extension is
>>        >
>>        > necessary to give a more complete account of cultural
>>        historical processes.
>>        >
>>        > However, Wertsch suggests in the move to this macro level
>>        Leontiev did not
>>        >
>>        > incorporate many of Vygotsky's insights about
>>        interpsychological functioning
>>        >
>>        > and semiotic mediation. In other words Vygotsky did not
>>        produce a complete
>>        >
>>        > account of how INTRApsychological and INTERpsychological
>>        planes of
>>        >
>>        > functioning are tied to social INSTITUTIONAL factors. This
>>        extension to
>>        >
>>        > social institutional processes is required to go beyond
>>        microsociological
>>        >
>>        > and interpsychological functioning to become a fullfledged
>>        analysis of mind
>>        >
>>        > in society.
>>        >
>>        >
>>        > **To give the MOST complete account of "cultural-historical"
>>        processes , you should , first of all , give  the most
>>        comprehensive account of man's life on the Earth . Man is
>>        material not semiotic and leads a material life not a semiotic
>>        one ; he uses semiotics because he has stored tons of actions
>>        and events and operations behind them . Then his best and most
>>        effective accounts consist of enumerating the actions and
>>        activities he has gone through . And these were to produce His
>>        history and his culture ; when no history and no culture were
>>        on , activities and actions were and were for man to survive .
>>        Yes to history and culture but on a final count , and with all
>>        the results emanating from them , they have a material BASE :
>>        MATERIAL ACTIVITY .
>>        >
>>        > I prefer to script SOCIAL institutional factors . You quite
>>        invulantarily and repeatedly get back to Micro-Social .
>>        Marxism has Classes and Division of Classes . And their
>>        Struggle for Power . In  a not developed society in which
>>        Classes have not come to have distinct boundaries , groupings
>>        , layers , guilds , communities of practice , maybe habituses
>>        come to the surface and begin maneuvering . And we judge about
>>        a revolution be the Nature of the State . Leontyev has a
>>        discussion about if internals act through the externals or
>>        vice versa . He gives his example with S.L. Rubinstein who
>>        believes externals act through the internals . L asks what
>>        these internals are and how they act on the externals . In my
>>        last message I noted : TRANSFORMATIONS WITHIN , MUST OF
>>        NECESSITY HAVE THEIR LOOKS WITHOUT . Do you have anything
>>        other than Heredity and Lived Experience in the Internal ?
>>        These have been discussed by Leontyev . And I gave you my
>>        coloured / marked
>>        >  version of A.C.P . It is a gist of lots and lots of reading
>>        . And I don't know if Mind comes with the Birth ; What is it ?
>>        If it is fixed or liable to change . And where do Marxists put
>>        Mind in their structure of Philosophy or Psychology . And if
>>        we act in such a way to take some blocks of heredity and
>>        others of our lived experience and try to build our VITAL
>>        EXPERIENCE upon them like putting stones upon stones ; then
>>        what about sublimation : TO RETAIN AND RESOLVE THE OLD IN THE
>>        NEW . **
>>        >
>>        > More than for one message .
>>        > Cheers
>>        > Haydi
>>        >
>>        > Haydi, I wanted to open with Wertsch's comments to
>>        acknowledge the
>>        >
>>        > centrality of these macro levels on the formation of mind.
>>        However, in my
>>        >
>>        > work and in my personal life I'm pulled to focus more on the
>>        >
>>        > interpsychological explorations of social organization. The
>>        notion of
>>        >
>>        > extending the concept of "psychological tools" to the
>>        broader notion of
>>        >
>>        > "tool KITS' points to the recognition of multiple genres or
>>        "texts" as
>>        >
>>        > various tools to be used in the tool kit to understand
>>        social organization.
>>        >
>>        > These tool kits offer a variety of options about what is
>>        permissible or
>>        >
>>        > appropriate to include in our accounts and bias our
>>        narratives towards
>>        >
>>        > different planes of social organization.  Selecting a
>>        particular genre from
>>        >
>>        > the tool kit places CONSTRAINTS on what can be said and how
>>        it can be
>>        >
>>        > expressed.  From a cultural historical perspective the
>>        particular genre
>>        >
>>        > chosen is itself open for exploration and critique.
>>        >
>>        > The issue of these genres or texts and how they are chosen
>>        or selected as
>>        >
>>        > mediational means is itself an object for analysis within
>>        CHAT. Also these
>>        >
>>        > various tools in the tool kit are themselves constantly
>>        evolving and
>>        >
>>        > interacting. Activity theory at the macro level is influenced by
>>        >
>>        > explorations of texts written with an interpsychological
>>        focus.  Vladimir
>>        >
>>        > Zinchenko is exploring phenomena at the microstructural and
>>        microgenetic
>>        >
>>        > level where perception and action are related below the
>>        level of awareness
>>        >
>>        > outside accessibility to introspection. But he suggests
>>        these microgenetic
>>        >
>>        > processes follow phases, stages, of genetic development.
>>         This is at a level
>>        >
>>        > of the intrapsychological.
>>        >
>>        > My mentioning "active experience" was at the
>>        interpsychological level of
>>        >
>>        > analysis.  Active experience contrasted with "habits" in
>>        Dewey's language of
>>        >
>>        > social organization. Active experience is when RUPTURES
>>        occur in the
>>        >
>>        > habitual ways of responding within interpsychological
>>        socially organized
>>        >
>>        > spaces.  How we account for these ruptures depends on the
>>        tools in our tool
>>        >
>>        > kit that we use as explanations and interpretations and
>>        justifications.
>>        >
>>        > Different tools lead to different accounts.
>>        >
>>        > The question of how we come to share collective memories of
>>        shared
>>        >
>>        > experiences at the interpsychological and activity levels
>>        BUT also how we
>>        >
>>        > incorporate "active experience" as RUPTURING experiences of
>>        collective
>>        >
>>        > memory is also requiring consideration.
>>        >
>>        >
>>        > Haydi. as Andy mentioned, I'm one of those hesitant to
>>        express my opinions
>>        >
>>        > at the political level. My positions on social justice tool
>>        kits [genres]
>>        >
>>        > such as discussions of "dominant" and "nondominant" genres
>>        is tentative. The
>>        >
>>        > book Vygotsky in the 21st Century suggests the authors in
>>        that book are
>>        >
>>        > taking an "outlier" position on CHAT genres. They are
>>        exploring the
>>        >
>>        > interpsychological genres of CHAT.  They are engaging with
>>        themes of
>>        >
>>        > dominant and nondominant genres and the constraints imposed
>>        by various tools
>>        >
>>        > in the tool kit. I think my exploring "alterity" is
>>        exploring similar themes
>>        >
>>        > and has its own biases, constraints, and blind spots.
>>        >
>>        > Haydi, your thoughts have made me reflective on the larger
>>        issues I may be
>>        >
>>        > neglecting in my exploring the interpsychological.
>>        >
>>        >
>>        > Larry
>>        >
>>        > ______________________________**____________
>>        >
>>        > _____
>>        >
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>>
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>>        >
>>        --         ------------------------------**
>> ------------------------------**------------
>>        *Andy Blunden*
>>        Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>        Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/>**> <
>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/>**>
>>
>>        Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>        <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> >
>>        <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>        <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>    --     ------------------------------**------------------------------*
>> *------------
>>    *Andy Blunden*
>>    Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/<http://home.mira.net/~andy/>
>> **>
>>    Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>    <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> >
>>
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> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
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