Re: [xmca] Collective Experience vs. Individual Experience? (Help, anyone?)

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Bruce
The notion of a "shared social space" as contrasted with "atomization" is a
distinction that is critical for understanding "shared" experiences. The
loss of a sense of the "public sphere" [sociology as a discipline was formed
to explore this issue] in modernity [and the privileging of the private
realm] has implications for our sense of who "we" are.
Buber contrasted "empathy" [a sense of mirroring or being the same with]
with "inclusion". Inclusion is a form of "we" that is a "compound" of two
distinct differentiated persons and the "confirmation" experienced in their
shared witnessing of an event. [not dissolved to union]  AND the recognition
that the event IS shared.
 There are multiple notions of "we" and "shared xperience" but issues of
"temporality", and "place" or "space" must be considered in our notions of
"collective we" "shared we" etc.

Larry

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 4:12 AM, Bruce Robinson <bruce@brucerob.eu> wrote:

> There seems to me to be an important distinction here that is blurred by
> the
> use of terms like 'shared' and 'collective'. On the one hand, there is the
> experience of crowds, demonstrations, football matches, picket lines,
> revolutions where the individual through direct participation in collective
> activity feels part of something bigger than themselves and sheds part of
> their individuality. Hence the feeling - very real - of being 'swept up in
> the crowd' doing things you would not normally choose to do as a result of
> directly feeling oneself part of a collective in action.
>
> This is described in detail from a CHAT perspective in Shah-Shuja's 2008
> book 'Zones of Proletarian Development'.
>
> This transformation of subjectivity is distinct from having just shared the
> same experience such as Tony's earthquake - experience is objectively shared
> but not necessarily recognised as shared or recognised not acted upon
> collectively.
>
> The distinction can be understood in Lefebvre's terms as the presence or
> absence of a social space - not necessarily physical proximity but a medium
> through which an acting collectivity can form. What is interesting is the
> creation of such a space as transition from objectively given to
> subjectively felt shared experience and collectivity.
>
> This can occur very rapidly as the simple result of knowing about others
> who feel the same way. Andrew Woods (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/**
> 02/02/opinion/02iht-edwoods02.**html?_r=1<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/opinion/02iht-edwoods02.html?_r=1>)
> refers to a psychological literature on 'pluralistic ignorance' and work of
> sociologist Hubert O'Gorman. It can also change just as a result of having
> information about what is going on.
>
> There are classic examples of this in the 'Arab Spring'. Many participants
> speak of a decisive moment when they overcame their fear and decided to go
> onto the streets as a result of knowing there were others prepared to do the
> same. Thus apparent stability can dissolve very quickly once atomisation is
> overcome and a social space comes about. So while talk of 'Twitter
> revolutions' is obvious hype, there is a truth in that in CHAT terms the
> mediating artefact enabled the creation of a collecive with a shared goal.
>
> Exactly how this happened including the subjective processes involved is
> investigated in the two BBC programmes "How Facebook Changed the World: The
> Arab Spring" |( http://www.bbc.co.uk/**programmes/b014l2ck<http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014l2ck>) which traces the development from the self-immolation of the market trader
> in Tunisia to the situation in July / August with lots of interviews with
> key activists.
>
> Bruce Robinson
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net>
> To: <ablunden@mira.net>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Collective Experience vs. Individual Experience?
> (Help,anyone?)
>
>
>
> Ah, I have to correct my error. What is more productive of a "we" than a
>> shared experience is *doing* something together, a shared project.
>> andy
>>
>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>>> I think nothing makes a "we" more effectively than a shared experience,
>>> and yes Mike, I take it that there is very much a temporal dimension
>>> here. It could be as long as "the protest movement of the 60s" or "in the
>>> war," or "growing up in xville," but archetypically, it is Tony's
>>> earthquake - being there on that day.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>
>>>> That helps, tony. It sent me back to re-read Andy's note.
>>>>
>>>> Andy wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You have an experience, and then you find that everyone else experienced
>>>> the
>>>> same thing and that event then becomes a central focus of your
>>>> collaboration
>>>> with other people.
>>>>
>>>> Re-reading reinforces my intuition of the time dimension. "In the
>>>> instant"
>>>> (which can fell likes hours and even be hours) it is quite localized in
>>>> an
>>>> individual life. In daily life it comes to known to be shared (we had a
>>>> huge
>>>> blackout here- similar sequence) and spreads out and across people. In
>>>> the
>>>> longer run it comes to have a kind of "precipitated" enduring presence
>>>> that
>>>> shades into collective memory.
>>>>
>>>> (I know, I am prone to threes, but something like this?)
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Tony Whitson <twhitson@udel.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I mean by "shared experience," as something between individual and
>>>>> collective experience, is perfectly captured by how Andy characterizes
>>>>> shared experience. I experience something & find out you and I have
>>>>> both had
>>>>> that experience in common, and it has the power Andy describes.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I mean by collective experience is experience in which the
>>>>> experience
>>>>> of others participates in the experience of any one, in the course of
>>>>> the
>>>>> experiencing. Temporal aspects are certainly crucial for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> A single mother who has lost her job in "the great recession" and who
>>>>> is
>>>>> worried sick -- literally, to the point of being unable to sleep, and
>>>>> maybe
>>>>> even vomiting from stress-induced gastro-whatever -- is experiencing
>>>>> something somatically in a way that is particular to her own individual
>>>>> body; but, at the same time, it is not just an individual experience,
>>>>> like
>>>>> my experience of the shaking that I realized only after a few seconds
>>>>> must
>>>>> be an earthquake. That mother's experience, through and through, is her
>>>>> involvement in an experience that is irreducibly collective.
>>>>>
>>>>> Herder is relevant, but not the same -- he's more about culturally
>>>>> (nationally) accumulated shared experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering if there's something in the literature of social
>>>>> phenomenology (Schutz, maybe?).
>>>>>
>>>>> So, Larry, it's more or less up to people on the list what they will
>>>>> take
>>>>> up, and what they will pass by.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2011, mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Tony- I am unclear about how your comments point to something between
>>>>>
>>>>> individual and collective experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, the term experience evokes misunderstandings, but have you tried
>>>>>> culture recently as a problem free alternative? :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Might temporal aspects of "an experience" play a role in the
>>>>>> individual:collective
>>>>>> distinction? Would that be an avenue to distinguishing an intermediate
>>>>>> process?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Tony Whitson <twhitson@udel.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Thanks, Andy, that is helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Dewey is posted here:
>>>>>>> https://tw-curricuwiki.****wikis**paces.com/Dewey--**culture%**2C+**
>>>>>>> experience<https://tw-**curric**uwiki.wikispaces.com/**<http://curricuwiki.wikispaces.com/**>
>>>>>>> Dewey--culture%2C+experience<h**ttps://tw-curricuwiki.**
>>>>>>> wikispaces.com/Dewey--culture%**2C+experience<https://tw-curricuwiki.wikispaces.com/Dewey--culture%2C+experience>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>       On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Herder, as I understand him, saw collective experience as an
>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> facet in the formation of the character of a people. I think part of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> problem is that "experience" has been such a contested term, Tony.
>>>>>>>> Generally
>>>>>>>> it has been co-opted by Empiricism, which is by its nature
>>>>>>>> individualist
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> by definition the philosophy of experiene, but Dewey used the word
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> formulating his view. But didn't he later say that he regretted
>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> word "experience" because it led to misunderstandings? Personally, I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> /shared/ experience is the most powerful force in changing Zeitgeist
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> individual mninds en masse. You have an experience, and then you
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> everyone else experienced the same thing and that event then becomes
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> central focus of your collaboration with other people. What could be
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> world-changing?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tony Whitson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  This query is prompted by a new book:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peck, Don. Pinched: How the Great Recession Has Narrowed Our
>>>>>>>>> Futures
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> What We Can Do About It. New York: Crown Pub., 2011.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Pinched-******Great-Recession-Narrowed-****<http://www.amazon.com/Pinched-****Great-Recession-Narrowed-**>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.amazon.com/**Pinched-**Great-Recession-**Narrowed-**<http://www.amazon.com/Pinched-**Great-Recession-Narrowed-**>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> Futures/dp/0307886522<http://****www.amazon.com/Pinched-Great-****<http://www.amazon.com/Pinched-Great-**>
>>>>>>>>> Recession-Narrowed-Futures/dp/****0307886522<http://www.**
>>>>>>>>> amazon.com/Pinched-Great-**Recession-Narrowed-Futures/dp/**
>>>>>>>>> 0307886522<http://www.amazon.com/Pinched-Great-Recession-Narrowed-Futures/dp/0307886522>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>            /
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in which the author looks more deeply into predictable
>>>>>>>>> ramifications of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> current economic situation than I have seen in other recent work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Based on historical, sociological, and other literatures and modes
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> research, the author argues that what we're dealing with now is not
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> wave in a recurring cycle. He predicts lasting changes that he
>>>>>>>>> expects
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> deeply impact different generational cohorts for decades to come.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> His argument is plausible, at least, to me. But it prompts me to
>>>>>>>>> wonder
>>>>>>>>> about experience that is really collective experience, as opposed
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> individual experience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exposing my ignorance, I realize that I can't think of literature
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> nature and structure of collective experience. It seems like there
>>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>>> be a
>>>>>>>>> lot; but I can't think of it. It also seems like xmca is a likely
>>>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> find people who would be interested, and would know about such
>>>>>>>>> literature
>>>>>>>>> (although it's not on-topic in the current threads).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking of my first earthquake experience last month as an
>>>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> an individual experience. It was totally unlike anything I'd ever
>>>>>>>>> experienced before, and it took me a few seconds to even recognize
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> earthquake is what was happening (we don't have those in Delaware).
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> my desk, at home, by myself when it happened.
>>>>>>>>> Of course, the experience was mediated after the fact from my
>>>>>>>>> sociocultural
>>>>>>>>> awareness of earthquakes. Still, I think it was an individual
>>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the moment, compared with the collective experience that Don Peck
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> writing
>>>>>>>>> about -- an experience of events and developments over time, in
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> experience of others participates, throughout, in the experience of
>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am thinking that there might be something else that could be
>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>> "shared experience," intermediate between individual and collective
>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does this make any sense? Is this question of interest to anyone?
>>>>>>>>> Or am
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> naďvely wondering about things that have been well developed in the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> literature?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would be interested if anyone has ideas or references to share on
>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________******____________
>>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>>>>>> <http://dss.**ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/**xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------******--------------------------**
>>>>>>>> --**--**
>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.informaworld.com/**
>>>>>>>> smpp/title~db=all~content=******g932564744<http://www.**
>>>>>>>> informaworld.com/smpp/title%****7Edb=all%7Econtent=g932564744<**
>>>>>>>> http://www.informaworld.com/**smpp/title%7Edb=all%7Econtent=**
>>>>>>>> g932564744<http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~db=all~content=g932564744>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>          Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>>>>> Book:
>>>>>>>> http://www.brill.nl/default.******aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.****aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>>>>>>> <ht**tp://www.brill.nl/default.****aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> <http**://www.brill.nl/**default.aspx?**partid=227&pid=**34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?**partid=227&pid=34857>
>>>>>>>> <http://www.brill.nl/**default.aspx?partid=227&pid=**34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>          ______________________________******____________
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>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>           Tony Whitson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> UD School of Education
>>>>>>> NEWARK  DE  19716
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> twhitson@udel.edu
>>>>>>> ______________________________******_
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "those who fail to reread
>>>>>>>  are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>>>>>>>                -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony Whitson
>>>>> UD School of Education
>>>>> NEWARK  DE  19716
>>>>>
>>>>> twhitson@udel.edu
>>>>> ______________________________****_
>>>>>
>>>>> "those who fail to reread
>>>>>  are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>>>>>                 -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Joint Editor MCA:
>> http://www.informaworld.com/**smpp/title~db=all~content=**g932564744<http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~db=all~content=g932564744>
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>
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