[xmca] Re:Fernando on LSV

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

As I understand it, Monica, Rey is claiming (and in this agrees with many on
xmca, but not others) that the LSV of Psychology of Art was displaced for
several years by an instrumentalist Vygotsky. LSV liked to quote
Bacon: *Neither
hand nor mind alone, left to themselves,  amounts to much; instruments and
aids are  the means to perfection. *Bruner highlights this idea in his 1962
preface to LSV.

This view was easily assimilatable by American learning theorists in general
and those interested in the role of culture in learning in particular. For
the former, it appeared to be a rephrasing of what was called "mediated
stimulus-response learning" diagramed in a triangle with an x at the apex.
For the latter (me, for example) that little x and that kind of
instrumentalism provided a perfect way to think about culturally mediated
psychological processes. Similar interpretations can be made of Dewey.

But such instrumentalism has several (at least) drawbacks. Firstly, it
under-guestimates the polysemy of tools (and of course, the "tool of
tools."). In such under-guestimation it over specifies the goal (e.g., it is
easily reduced to the kind of functionalism that many argue against).
Thirdly, when these two pits are fallen into, it makes meaning MAKING, the
process of constantly imagining the future to be able to act in the present,
disappear from view.

Presumably, according to this line of thinking, the late Vygotsky has thrown
off instrumentalism and become a semiotic theorist. Then the problem becomes
one of not tipping over into idealism in which all is interpretation
obdurate reality "only" imagined.

I am not being so foolhardy to say that any of this is correct. But it is
how I interpret Fernando's argument. Anton, David, Van der Veer, Valsiner,
and others are the one's who can provide a more nuanced view of sequences
and relationships across the 1924-1934 period.

mike
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Monica Hansen <
monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote:

> I am still working on the taking in the Rey article. Some of you are so
> fast! I need a couple of nights of sleep at least.
>
> In looking at the last bit of this post, Mike, can you clarify a couple of
> things? You write that the work from Rey's "middle period" of Vygotsky's
> work was more "easily assimilable"? What does that mean? And for who was it
> more easily assimilable? For the translators and editors of the earlier
> English editions or for the American and English reading audience who would
> then go on to use it in their work? And then also, what issues of Larry's
> and others do you think the "middle period" fails to orient us on? Is it
> the
> issue with "instrumentalism" and "reductionist" methods and the following
> "objectivism"?
>
> Just trying to catch up and discuss. I know I have more to read in postings
> so you may have already clarified.
>
> Thanks,
> Monica
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:59 AM
> To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Article for Discussion
>
> The answer to your question, Andy, is that you should ask if we can post
> the
> williams article for discussion in papers for discussion. After we discuss
> Fernando's paper, we could turn to it. I agree, its very relevant, taking
> up
> the Lave-McDermott Marx-->Learning paper from Outlines (I think) and
> arguing
> for use value in education.
>
> As to Fernando's paper, I have a different view.
>
> Roughly, I interpret him as arguing that the focus on the period when LSV
> et
> al were doing "instrumental" psychology, the instrumentalism involved
> reductions that had unfortunate consequences but it was this aspect/period
> of the work that English speakers focused on. The ties to Dewey here are
> obvious and behaviorism ditto
> (Skinner was in many ways following the lessons of his interpretation of
> pragmatism).
>
> Fernando, reading the outpouring of materials in English sees what he
> thinks
> is a narrow focus and seeks to counter by pointing backward toward Psych of
> art and forward to the late work. So, rather than focus on periodization,
> wouldn't it be more
> productive to focus on the extent to which the middle period which
> interested us so
> much, perhaps because it was more easily assimilable (for which see passim
> all the criticism you care to read on the topic!) fails to orient us to the
> issues that Larry and others have been focusing on?
>
> mike
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > Mike, I've been reading this article by Fernando Gonzales Rey, but I
> really
> > am not interested in discusssing it. His periodisation of Vygotsky does
> > nothing for me. I mean, to describe Vygotsky's view of the development of
> > higher psychological functionse, as "objectivist" and some kind of
> > regression from the period before he wrote "Historical Crisis", which
> puts
> > him in the same basket as Behaviourism,  is just so remote from how I
> read
> > Vygotsky, I would rather just bow out of the discussion. I admit, I
> stopped
> > reading before I got through reading Rey on this period in which Vygotsky
> > apparently went backwards.
> >
> > Any chance we could squeeze two articles out of Taylor & Francis for
> > discussion? I would like to see a discussion about Julian Williams'
> effort
> > to connect up a critique of formal education and Marx's analysis of
> > capitalism and commodity production. Could we have two going at the same
> > time?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> >
> >> THNX FOR PICKING UP THE MISTAKE< ANDY
> >> M
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>    Mike, you forgot to cc us all, but is the cc above still right for
> >>    Fernando?
> >>    andy
> >>
> >>    mike cole wrote:
> >>
> >>>    Fernando Rey on turning points in Vygotsky's thinking was selected
> in
> >>> a last
> >>>    minute rush of votes. I am having the article posted for all the
> world
> >>> to read, but meantime, see attached.
> >>>
> >>>    The author, currrently living in Brasilia, is cc'ed.
> >>>    mike
> >>>
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> >>    --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------*
> >> *------------
> >>    *Andy Blunden*
> >>    Joint Editor MCA:
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