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Re: [xmca] activity (was concepts)



On 25 April 2011 21:18, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 25 April 2011 15:10, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>
>> Huw:
>>
>> Thank you for the dialogue.  I am having a difficult time understanding
>> what you mean by a "system of action".
>>
>
> There's nothing wrong with not understanding it, unless it's a problem for
> you.
>
>
>>  It is not a part of CHAT and
>> doesn't fit into what LSV was describing in T& S when he discusses the
>> development of concepts.
>
>
> If you say so, but consider this: if you don't know what I'm referring to
> how do you know it's "not in there"?
>
>
>>  Perhaps if you gave me a background of how you
>> use this in your daily practice I could understand.
>
>
> I seem to have the habit of turning my interests into my work, so I'm not
> quite sure where to start, and would likely entail quite a brain dump.  Some
> of the more interesting ones would takes pages to write.  But this is all
> common-sense, surely?  Here are a few more examples:
>
> When I say to my wife,  "Would you like me to go to Tescos?", I use the
> phrase "go to Tescos" to describe an action which consists of a particular
> set of relations (relations that comprise a system).  This act is done in
> the context of maintaining our food supplies at home (another system).
>
> Picture this:  A man is in a small boat off an African shore.  He pales
> water to keep the boat afloat.  He fishes to support his family (or keep his
> house afloat, if he had a mortgage).  His breathing , paling, fishing, etc.
> are all actions in particular contexts (systems of relation) and his
> capacity to act is constrained and afforded by the system "he is in".
>
>

Another long day.   I meant bail.  Though one can bail with a pail it
seems.  Conflation/inner form anyone?


> You mentioned before about the qualitative differences of hydrogen, oxygen
> and water.  Well, how about considering the differences of man, boat, and
> man-in-boat?  Or man, calculator and man-using-calculator?  Or man,
> means-of-addition and man-using-the-means-of-addition?
>
> Huw
>
>
>>  For me I utilize
>> LSV's writing in my work with adolescents with sever mental health issues.
>>
>>
> That sounds like rewarding and challenging work, Eric.
>
> Huw
>
>
>>  eric
>>
>>
>>
>> From:   Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>> To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> Date:   04/21/2011 06:57 PM
>> Subject:        Re: [xmca] activity (was concepts)
>> Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 21 April 2011 18:18, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 21 April 2011 16:49, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Huw:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> > Hi, Eric.  I'm a bit fresher now, so I thought I'd give this a go.
>> >
>> >
>> >>  I can appreciate lurking behind the meanings of words.  I can
>> appreciate
>> >>> the serpentine action of weaving inside and outside the interplay of
>> >>> origins; however, I cannot support that which strips what is within A
>> >>> reality.  6" of snow in april is what it is, right?  So, if one were
>> to
>> >>> take a word such as 'poverty' and wield it for the purposes of camera
>> and
>> >>> media time is that a tool or a concept?  Methinks a concept is neutral
>> >>> and
>> >>> only is what it is, such as 6" of snow in april.  Thanks to Martin I
>> have
>> >>> honed in a bit better on what LSV was musing about in chapter 7 when
>> >>> discussing the merger of thinking and speech;  being that word meaning
>> >>> evolves and develops due to thinking not due to the physical act of
>> >>> speaking the word.  However, the quality of the word meaning in a dual
>> >>> stimulation exercise provides a person with the seed of a concept:
>> Snow
>> >>> in April can arouse one to thinking things strange and out of sorts
>> but
>> >>> then when told it is in Minnesota, qualifies the answer.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> > If you're using quality as mentioned in your more recent post, then I'm
>> in
>> > agreement here that it is the concept (or seed of the concept to be
>> > subjectively discovered).
>> >
>> >
>> >>   Tool use is an
>> >>> association that can provide a person with the chaining of one idea
>> onto
>> >>> another but it is merely a quantity.  No?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> > No.  A scientific concept is a system of relations, as is a quality.
>> >
>> > Regarding use, my employment of a hammer is a system.  As is my
>> employment
>> > of a concept.  We could talk about a quantitative change to this system
>> of
>> > action, increasing the mass of the hammer for instance, but the action
>> > itself comprises a system.
>> >
>> > The concept of mass refers to a system of relations.  The measurement of
>> > mass comprises a quantity.
>> >
>> >
>> Measurement as in the product of measuring.  Measuring is a system of
>> action.
>>
>>
>> > There is a nice bit in Bateson's "Mind and Nature" when he talks about
>> the
>> > interaction between Form and Process that he stumbled across whilst out
>> > doing field work of Iatmul culture (page 210 in my copy) where he
>> describes
>> > the interaction of systems of process (action) and systems of type
>> > (qualities, concepts).  This might help you to get your head around the
>> > system of action and the system of a concept.
>> >
>> >
>> >>   Going back to the example of
>> >>> poverty we can associate that with many other words but what is it
>> that
>> >>> qualifies poverty?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> > If there is an agreed concept of poverty  then it will be based on an
>> > implied set of relations, this is the agreed qualification (e.g. income
>> less
>> > than the cost of rent + food for a given area).
>> >
>> >
>> >>   I can think of many examples as I am sure others can
>> >>> as well, however, if one is to wield the word of 'poverty' then one is
>> >>> not
>> >>> wielding a concept they are merely using it as a tool for there own
>> >>> purposes.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> > Still fuzzy on your meaning for this bit.  The word does not _need_ to
>> > denote a systemic concept in this sense.  Typically, noun phrases are
>> used
>> > for this purpose, though someone can say a word without thinking its
>> > meaning, or think up their own meaning, if that's your point?
>> >
>> > I hope this helps for you,  Eric.
>> >
>> > Of course concept formations are only going to come about through
>> > particular kinds of social interaction.  So if this is all seems really
>> > crazy, I'd wait till your fresh and then hang on with some
>> determination.
>> >
>> > Huw
>> >
>> >
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