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Re: [xmca] Vygotsky on Leading Activity



Hi Carol

Do you know of  an article that explores this connection between Vico and
von Glasersfeld?  Would be fascinating to see how he influenced his model of
cognition

Larry

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 5:44 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>wrote:

> Vico influenced von Glasersfeld, one of the modern exponents of
> constructivism.
> Carol
>
> On 6 February 2011 14:54, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, someone (it may have been Mike C.) told me that Vico was playing in
> > Italy a similar role at a similar time as Herder was playing in Germany.
> I
> > MUST get around to reading Vico!! Thanks for the reminder Robert.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > Robert Lake wrote:
> >
> >> Larry P.  Mike and Andy.
> >> I so appreciate these  last postings. Here is a  paragraph from a piece
> I
> >> wrote in 2006.
> >> Robert Lake
> >>
> >>
> >>  One man who is rarely mentioned, whose views are strikingly similar to
> >> forward thinkers at the end of the Twentieth century, is Giambattista
> >> Vico.
> >> In fact, his work helped to spark the Romantic Movement by influencing
> the
> >> poets and writers of the late Eighteenth century.  In his work called
> *New
> >> Science* (1744), he states that “it is noteworthy that in all language,
> >> the
> >> greater part of the expressions relating to inanimate things is formed
> by
> >> metaphors from the human body and its parts and from the human senses
> and
> >> passions” (p. 405). In Vico’s view, this formation of the mind through
> >> language began through metaphorical signs and gestures.  Metaphor became
> >> the
> >> primary way  Lof knowing and understanding experience in the world.
> >>  Modell (2003) acknowledges the importance Vico placed on this view by
> >> saying that “metaphor was understood not as a figure of speech, a trope,
> >> but
> >> as a vital means of understanding the world” (p. 15). Vico’s views sound
> >> remarkably like Dewey (1934), Greene (1995), and others who welcome a
> >> pluralistic epistemology through the portals of the body/mind.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Andy
> >>> r
> >>> You wrote,
> >>>
> >>>  "Which discipline should lead, unify, and elaborate the basic
> concepts,
> >>> principles, and methods, verify and systematise the data of all other
> >>> areas?    You see this question having a similar theme to David Ki's
> >>> account of genres.
> >>>
> >>> In the spirit of this question I want to bring Lakoff & Johnson's
> >>> perspective of 2nd generation cognitive science into the discussion.
> >>>  This
> >>> perspective is elaborated in their book "Philosophy in the Flesh"
> >>>
> >>> In a section of the book titled "Phenomenology, Functionalism, and
> >>> Materialism: The Issue of Privileging the Metaphysics of Only One
> Level"
> >>> they elaborate a perspective that suggests we can explain or understand
> >>> reality at more than one level. They suggest there are three frameworks
> >>> for
> >>> understanding what is "real" 1 Direct  2 Representational 3 embodied.
> >>>
> >>> These alternative frameworks emerged historically.  The Greeks assumed
> a
> >>> direct relation of the real. In the direct model there is no split
> >>> between
> >>> ontology [what there IS] and epistemology [what you could KNOW]
> >>>
> >>> With Descartes, a gap opened between mind and world. Ideas became
> >>> internal
> >>> representations OF external reality that CORRESPONDED to the external
> >>> world
> >>> and the mind becomes disembodied. In the most popular current version
> >>> [1st
> >>> generation cognitive science] representations have shrunk to symbolic
> >>> representations or "symbol-system realism" (for example Foder)
> >>> Symbol-system
> >>> realism is a legacy of analytic philosophy.
> >>>
> >>> Lakoff and Johnson suggest with the 2nd generation of cognitive science
> >>> there has been a shift to embodied realism (embodied reason) This
> >>> perspective is an evolution based realism in which our bodies and
> brains
> >>> accomodate and transform our surroundings.
> >>>
> >>> All three perspective are realist as they accept that the material
> world
> >>> exists and we can give an account of how we function successfully in
> the
> >>> world.  The direct and embodied perspective share an assumtion that
> there
> >>> is
> >>> no mind-body gap whereas the representational view accepts a gap.
> >>>  However
> >>> the embodied view rejects the premise that we can have absolutely
> correct
> >>> objective knowledge of the world because our knowledge is constrained
> by
> >>> the
> >>> limitations of our physical bodies.  Embodied realism assumes a
> different
> >>> epistemology and rejects the epistemology of direct absolute knowledge
> of
> >>> the world-in-itself.  Knowledge is therefore relative, but not
> radically
> >>> relative.  Knowledge is relative to the limited capacity of our bodies,
> >>> brains, and embodied interactions in the world.
> >>>
> >>> Lakoff and Johnson suggest there are DIRECTLY embodied concepts
> [primary
> >>> basic level concepts, spatial-relations concepts, and event-structure
> >>> concepts] which form the basis of "stable" knowledge.  They also
> >>> postulate
> >>> the existence of PRIMARY METAPHORS which are the origin and make
> possible
> >>> the extension of the direct basic level concepts INTO abstract domains.
> >>> The PRIMARY metaphors are highly constrained both by the nature of our
> >>> bodies and brains AND by the interactions in the world.
> >>>
> >>> Embodied realism  recognizes that concepts do change over time, vary
> >>> across
> >>> cultures, and have multiple structures which reflect social
> interactions
> >>> and
> >>> social constructions.
> >>>
> >>> Lakoff and Johnson recognize John Dewey and Maurice Merleau-Ponty as
> >>> anticipating the emergence of embodied realism. Both recognized when we
> >>> use
> >>> the words "mind" and "body" we are imposing bounded conceptual
> structures
> >>> artificially on a horizon of fluid processes that constitute our
> >>> experience.  The concepts "subjective" and "objective" are imposed on
> >>> this
> >>> fluid process.  More recently Varela, Thompson, and Rosch have extended
> >>> understanding of embodied realism with their ENACTIVE notion of
> >>> experience
> >>> which depend on sensorimotor capacities embedded within biological,
> >>> psychological, and cultural contexts.
> >>>
> >>> Lakoff and Johnson's embodied realism framework is distinguished from
> >>> these
> >>> other  perspectives in their reliance on empirical neuroscience in
> their
> >>> understanding of the structuring of experience.
> >>>
> >>>  Lakoff and Johnson suggest there are at least three LEVELS to
> >>> understanding
> >>> the embodiment of concepts. [neural level, phenomenological conscious
> >>> level,
> >>> and a 3rd level they label the cognitive unconscious] The neural level
> is
> >>> explored through the metaphor of neural structure in electronic,
> >>> circuitry
> >>> concepts. "Truth" at the neural level shares this common metaphor of
> >>> electronic terms.  Lakoff and Johnson point out that many neural
> >>> scientists
> >>> make the mistake of assuming they are exploring a "physical" level but
> >>> loose
> >>> sight that they are explaining this physical level in metaphorical
> terms
> >>> of
> >>> neural circuitry.
> >>>
> >>> The 2nd phenomenological level is the level at which we speak of the
> >>> "feel"
> >>> of experience as conscious, and the way things appear to us.
> >>>
> >>> Lakoff and Johnson hypothesize a 3rd level of nonconscious structure
> >>> [phenomenology also posits this level] which makes possible the
> structure
> >>> of
> >>> consciousness.  This nonconscious level is highly structured but
> >>> inaccessible to conscious awareness.  Lakoff and Johnson suggest that
> to
> >>> say
> >>> the cognitive unconscious is real is much like saying neural circuitry
> is
> >>> real.
> >>>
> >>> The 3 levels ARE RELATED.  We would not have spatial-relation concepts
> >>> without orientation-sensitive nerve cells.  We would not have the color
> >>> concepts we have without specific neural circuitry that creates the
> color
> >>> categories.  The neural level AND experience of the external world
> >>> together
> >>> significantly determine what concepts develop.
> >>>
> >>> Full understanding from Lakoff and Johnson's perspective requires
> >>> explanations at ALL 3 LEVELS.  No one level is sufficient to explain
> the
> >>> mind. Many aspects of mind are about the "feel" of experience
> >>> [phenomenological level]  Other aspects of mind can only be explained
> as
> >>> higher-level patterns which constitute the cognitive unconscious.  All
> 3
> >>> levels are present. Explanations at all 3 levels are necessary [though
> >>> not
> >>> sufficient] for adequate accounts of the mind.
> >>>
> >>> Color is an example of levels of explanation.  At the phenomenological
> >>> level
> >>> we perceice colors as being "in" the objects that "are" colored. Grass
> IS
> >>> green.  This is a phenomenology-first account of truth which privileges
> >>> that
> >>> level over scientific neural circuity truth claims.  The word "green"
> >>> reflects our conscious phenomenological experience of colors inhering
> in
> >>> objects themselves.  If grass is green then there is greeness in the
> >>> grass.
> >>>
> >>> However from the neural circuitry level of truth colors do not inhere
> in
> >>> the
> >>> objects themselves. They are created by our color cones and neural
> >>> circuitry
> >>> together with the wavelength reflectances of objects and local light
> >>> conditions.  "At the neural level, green is a multiplace interactional
> >>> property"  This truth claim contradicts the truth claim at the
> >>> phenomenological level.  These are "distinct" truths at different
> levels.
> >>> To state both the phenomenological and neural truths requires looking
> at
> >>> both levels at once. There is NO independent neutral truth beyond
> >>> perspectives.  Each level provides different modes of understanding.
> >>>
> >>> Embodied truth is not subjective truth. Lakoff and Johnson hypothesize
> we
> >>> all have similar embodied BASIC level and spatial-relation abilities to
> >>> perceive and manipulate [sensori-motor] which explains the structure of
> >>> primary metaphors.  Lakoff and Johnson are advocating a metaphysical
> >>> pluralism of explanations.  They suggest functionalists priviledge the
> >>> level
> >>> of the cognitive unconscious, whereas Husserl privileges the
> >>> phenomenological.  Eliminative materialists such as Churchland
> privilege
> >>> the
> >>> neural level for all aspects of cognition.  Functioalist developmental
> >>> scholars who study the acquistion of language privilege both the
> >>> phenomenological and cognitive unconscious levels but are silent on the
> >>> neural level.  Lakoff and Johnson recognize the validity of all 3
> levels
> >>> as
> >>> distinct levels of understanding within their version of 2nd generation
> >>> cognitive science.  Although there is NOT ONE correct description there
> >>> can
> >>> still be MANY CORRECT descriptions, depending on embodied
> understandings
> >>> at
> >>> different levels or different perspectives.   Each distinct perspective
> >>> provides a distinct commitment to what is real about that situation.
> Each
> >>> is
> >>> a version of a commitment to truth.
> >>>
> >>> Lakoff and Johnson take a position that they are PHYSICALISTS in that
> >>> they
> >>> believe there is an ultimate material basis for what is real.  But they
> >>> are
> >>> not "eliminativists" who posit that only physically existing "entities"
> >>> are
> >>> real.  For Lakoff and Johnson entities such as "basic primary
> metaphors"
> >>> [embodied metaphors] are real.
> >>>
> >>> Andy, I'm not sure where notions of "embodied" realism, mind, and
> >>> cognition
> >>> fit in your question of "leading" frameworks, but it is one more
> example
> >>> of
> >>> the possible usefullness of plural explanations of experience.
> >>>
> >>> Larry
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I have just started re-reading Vygotsky's "Historical Crisis" from the
> >>>> beginning, for the first time for many years (I have looked a cetain
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> "hot"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> topics, but not read it from the beginning for years). There is a pair
> >>>> of
> >>>> insights which he offers which I'd like to remind people of.
> >>>>
> >>>> (1) He says that at different stages in the history of psychology, one
> >>>> or
> >>>> another branch of psychology plays the "leading role." First the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> psychology
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> of the normal adult person, then pathology and then the psychology of
> >>>> the
> >>>> unconscious. He asks: "Which discipline should lead, unify, and
> >>>> elaborate
> >>>> the basic concepts, principles, and methods, verify and systematise
> the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> data
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> of all other areas?
> >>>>
> >>>> He then goes on to consider the same problem in a slightly different
> >>>> way:
> >>>> "What makes the most diverse phenomena into psychological facts - from
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> salivation in a dog to the enjoyment of a tragedy, what do the ravings
> >>>> of
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> a
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> madman and the rigorous computations of the mathematician share?" In
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> other
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> words, what is the concept of psychology and its subject matter? He
> then
> >>>> goes on to look at three competing answers, based on reflections of
> the
> >>>> proposed leading roles to be given to subjective psychology, animal
> >>>> psychology or psychoanalysis: "For general psychology the three
> answers
> >>>> mean, respectively that it is a science of (1) the mental and its
> >>>> properties, or (2) behaviour; or (3) the unconscious." This leads very
> >>>> directly to a consideration of the concept of psychology in terms of a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> unit
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> of analysis.
> >>>>
> >>>> Could we give an answer to the question as to which branch of general
> >>>> psychology plays the "leading role" today, in these very
> >>>> historical/objective terms?
> >>>>
> >>>> Andy
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Hegel Summer School: The New Atheism: Just Another Dogma? <
> >>>> http://ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hss2011.htm>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Hegel Summer School: The New Atheism: Just Another Dogma? <
> > http://ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hss2011.htm>
> >
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