Re: [xmca] Tom Toolery

[Lucas Bietti <lucas@bietti.org>]

Carol and Andy,


As far as I know, the point of the extended mind/distributed cognition approach
is the idea that in many cases cognitive processes are extended/distributed
across social and material environments. So in writing both the pencil and paper
are acting as mediating interfaces enabling us to perform certain cognitive
tasks (e.g. basic math operations) that, otherwise, we would not be able to
perform. 


Extended and distributed approaches to the mind don't consider the body as an
artifact. The basis for the these approaches is that cognitive processes are
embodied and situated in concrete activities. That's why cognitive and
sensory-motor interanimations are part of the same mind-body unity. Gesturing
can be thought as a cognitive-embodied activity in which the body acts as an
artifact to represent and convey meaning. In gesturing the mediating interface
is the space. However, if we believe that the body is crucial for perception and
cognition, in my view, there would be no reason to claim that the body is an
artifact -or I missed something of the discussion. 


Lucas




On October 16, 2010 at 3:13 AM Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote:

> Andy
> In a small and trembling voice, 'cos we don't want to get into dualisms
> here--surely artefacts mediate with other artefacts--the pencil mediates
> writing? I don't feel I am in the right league to answer this questions, but
> I think we are pushed back to this position.
> Carol
> 
> On 16 October 2010 08:33, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> 
> > Understood, and an interesting example it was too. I was just trying to get
> > back to Paula's interesting question which started the thread.
> > Jenna got a thread going on the blind person's cane, where that part of the
> > mind which is in artefacts become completely subsumed into the body, from a
> > psychological point of view. Paula then pointed out that from a
> > psychological point of view we can take parts of our body to be tools.
> > So the question is raised: psychologically speaking, where is the border
> > line between body and things?
> > Lucas added the idea of "distributed cognition" so that the activity of
> > other people is seen also to be a part of mind.
> > But, and I think this is an challenging one: if the human body is an
> > artefact, what is it mediating between?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > Carol Macdonald wrote:
> >
> >> Actually Andy
> >> I thought I was giving an historically interesting example.  Maybe it's
> >> because we have 350 000+ people a year dying from AIDS that health is so
> >> high in our national consciousness. So excuse the example: you are lucky
> >> you
> >> didn't get an historical account of HIV/AIDS!!
> >>
> >> Raising children is also interesting across the cultures in our country.
> >> But
> >> I have work to do so must stop here.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> On 16 October 2010 02:44, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> We shouldn't take this "the body is an artefact" down an entirely
> >>> negative
> >>> line of course, Carol.
> >>> Every parent will tell you the efforts that went into raising their own
> >>> darling children.
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>> Carol Macdonald wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> TB is very interesting historically in the way we have responded to it.
> >>>> Firstly, you got ill from it and died from it, like the poet Keats.
> >>>>  Then
> >>>> people were isolated in sanatoria and given drugs and then they
> >>>> recovered.
> >>>> And now, you are infectious until you start taking your medication, and
> >>>> then
> >>>> if you faithfully take it, then you get better. And most recently, you
> >>>> are
> >>>> likely to get TB as an opportunistic infection when you are HIV+, and
> >>>> it's
> >>>> harder to shake off because your immune system is compromised.
> >>>>
> >>>> Recently my niece had a group of friends round for supper and then was
> >>>> diagnosed with TB the following day.  She had to inform everybody, and
> >>>> they
> >>>> had to be checked, but within 48 hours, when she was on medicine, she
> >>>> didn't
> >>>> have to tell/warn anybody. Astonishing for someone who regularly swims
> >>>> 5km
> >>>> before breakfast!! If she had been Keats, her symptoms would have been
> >>>> more
> >>>> than a slight cough at night.
> >>>>
> >>>> carol
> >>>>
> >>>> On 15 October 2010 14:42, Leif Strandberg <leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> and TB
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is Karin Johanisson (Prof in Medical History, Univ of Uppsala, Sweden)
> >>>>> translated...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> her books are really interesting
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Leif
> >>>>> 15 okt 2010 kl. 14.26 skrev Martin Packer:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  Lactose intolerance - just one example of cultural continuation of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> biological evolution...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> .
> >>>>>> <Wade 2010 Human Culture, an Evolutionary Force.pdf>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2010, at 5:22 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  I am intrigued Rod. You conclude from this interesting story that the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> body is not ("may not be") an artefact, but "virtual maps" within the
> >>>>>>> brain
> >>>>>>> are? I presume because these neural structures are "constructed,"
> >>>>>>> whereas
> >>>>>>> other parts of the body are not?
> >>>>>>> What do you mean?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rod Parker-Rees wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In 'The body has a mind of its own' by Sandra Blakeslee and Matthew
> >>>>>>>> Blakeslee (2007 Random House), there is a chapter which begins with
> >>>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>> account of research by Dr Atsushi Iriki and colleagues in Japan.
> >>>>>>>> This
> >>>>>>>> research involved training monkeys to use rakes as tools to retrieve
> >>>>>>>> food
> >>>>>>>> and then using arrays of microelectrodes implanted in their skulls
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> study
> >>>>>>>> the visual receptive fields of visual-tactile cells in the posterior
> >>>>>>>> parietal cortex of the monkeys. What Iriki found was that these
> >>>>>>>> visual-tactile cells, which usually responded to information only in
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> region within the monkeys' arms length, began to respond to more
> >>>>>>>> distant
> >>>>>>>> information (within arm+rake's length) but ONLY when the monky was
> >>>>>>>> using the
> >>>>>>>> rake as a tool - when the mankey was passively holding the tool the
> >>>>>>>> response
> >>>>>>>> drew back to its normal range. The chapter goes on to describe
> >>>>>>>> studies
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> virtual reality in which participants learn to control avatars which
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> strikingly different physiology - e.g. a lobster - controlled by a
> >>>>>>>> complex
> >>>>>>>> code of combined body movements which is never shared with
> >>>>>>>> participants,
> >>>>>>>> they learn to control the movement of their avatar just by trial and
> >>>>>>>> error
> >>>>>>>> but they soon become able to 'automate' the process - focusing on
> >>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> want to do rather on what they have to do to do it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Our bodies may not be artefacts but our cerebellar virtual maps of
> >>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>> our bodies work and what we can do with them surely are.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have just started wearing varifocal glasses and am in the process
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> retraining my body's ways of seeing (learning to move my head and
> >>>>>>>> neck
> >>>>>>>> rather than just move my eyes) already I am finding that things
> >>>>>>>> 'stay
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> focus' more as my head and neck get my eyes into position without me
> >>>>>>>> having
> >>>>>>>> to tell them where to go!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For me this links with the discussion about bodies and tools and
> >>>>>>>> possibly extends (rake-like) beyond it - how much of the tool is
> >>>>>>>> defined by
> >>>>>>>> its form and how much by the cultural history of how, by whom, when,
> >>>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>>> and for what it has been and could be used?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> All the best,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Rod
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >>>>>>>> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>> ]
> >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> >>>>>>>> Sent: 15 October 2010 06:02
> >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Tom Toolery
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My claim is, David, not just that (for example) my fingers are
> >>>>>>>> functionally artefacts because I use them to play the piano, but
> >>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> are genetically artefacts because they are the products of art.
> >>>>>>>> "Labour
> >>>>>>>> created man himself" as old Fred said. If we are going to claim that
> >>>>>>>> thinking is artefact-mediated activity, then we must accept our
> >>>>>>>> bodies
> >>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>> artefacts, or abandon other important definitions of artefact, as
> >>>>>>>> mediator
> >>>>>>>> of activity, material product of human labour and the substance of
> >>>>>>>> culture.
> >>>>>>>> We fashion our bodies for the purpose of constructing a culture just
> >>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>> surely as we fashion our buildings, our domestic animals, our food
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> clothing and everything else.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You can define a word how you like, but the importance of realising
> >>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> our bodies are products of human labour which we use as both
> >>>>>>>> instruments and
> >>>>>>>> symbols, just like our white canes and spectacles,  is demonstrated
> >>>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>> intersubjectivists who simply overlook the role of artefacts as
> >>>>>>>> mediators
> >>>>>>>> altogether. In part this is possible because they subsume the human
> >>>>>>>> body
> >>>>>>>> into the notion of 'subject', something which also allows them to
> >>>>>>>> scoot over
> >>>>>>>> all sorts of tricky philosophical problems entailed in recognizing
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> active participation of subjectivity in what would otherwise be
> >>>>>>>> simply
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> complex series of material interactions. The result, contradictorily
> >>>>>>>> is a
> >>>>>>>> far worse Cartesian dualism than the one they tried to avoid.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> No, I thought long and hard about this, and the conclusion is
> >>>>>>>> inescapable: the human body is an artefact.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>> / //// /
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> David Kellogg wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>  Sometimes I would really like to be a mosquito in the room when
> >>>>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> is giving his course on developmental psychology. But I would
> >>>>>>>>> probably want
> >>>>>>>>> to bite the student who asked if the replacement of social
> >>>>>>>>> relations
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> language (e.g. discourse) by psychological ones (e.g. grammar) is a
> >>>>>>>>> "fact"
> >>>>>>>>> or just one of Martin's ideas; the question strikes me as rather
> >>>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>>> bumbling and humbling.
> >>>>>>>>> Fortunately, I have my own Thursday night session, which this
> >>>>>>>>> semester
> >>>>>>>>> is all about systemic functional linguistics and conversation
> >>>>>>>>> analysis. Last
> >>>>>>>>> night we were discussing the difference between them, and I pointed
> >>>>>>>>> out that
> >>>>>>>>> the systemic view is quite consistent with the idea of language as
> >>>>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>>> artefact and the conversation analysis view is much less so.
> >>>>>>>>> Take, for example, the problem of repair. A teacher walks into a
> >>>>>>>>> classroom.
> >>>>>>>>> T: Good morning, everybody.
> >>>>>>>>> Ss: Good morning, everybody!
> >>>>>>>>> T: !!!!
> >>>>>>>>> The conversation is broken. But in order to repair it, the teacher
> >>>>>>>>> does
> >>>>>>>>> not pull over and stop. The teacher has to keep going. The teacher
> >>>>>>>>> has to
> >>>>>>>>> find out what exactly the kids mean, if anything (are they simply
> >>>>>>>>> repeating
> >>>>>>>>> what they heard, as seems likely, or are they including their
> >>>>>>>>> classmates in
> >>>>>>>>> their reply to the teacher?)
> >>>>>>>>> This means that even quite simple conversations (the sort we have
> >>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> third graders) are quite gnarly and knobbled; they have
> >>>>>>>>> convolutions
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> introvolutions, knots and whorls and burls of negotiation.
> >>>>>>>>>  Conversations
> >>>>>>>>> exhibit very few of the genetic or structural of mechanical tools,
> >>>>>>>>> and in
> >>>>>>>>> fact only resemble "tools" only if we take a quite narrowly
> >>>>>>>>> functionalist
> >>>>>>>>> squint and presuppose a coinciding will that wields them. It even
> >>>>>>>>> seems to
> >>>>>>>>> me that they are misconstrued when we say that they are artefacts.
> >>>>>>>>> I think the Romantics, especially Herder, would agree with this
> >>>>>>>>> view:
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> think they would have been rather horrified at Andy's idea that a
> >>>>>>>>> body is an
> >>>>>>>>> artefact in the same sense as a tool is an artefact.  They would
> >>>>>>>>> point out
> >>>>>>>>> that it is not genetically so; the body is a natural product and
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>> man
> >>>>>>>>> made. It is also not structurally so: unlike other artefacts, much
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>>> structure reflects self-replication and not other-fabrication.  Of
> >>>>>>>>> course,
> >>>>>>>>> we may say that a body is FUNCTIONALLY like an artefact, because we
> >>>>>>>>> use it
> >>>>>>>>> as a tool in various ways. But if we privilege this particular
> >>>>>>>>> interpretation of the body over the genetic, or the structural,
> >>>>>>>>> account, it
> >>>>>>>>> seems to me we get a pretty functionalist view of things. A body
> >>>>>>>>> involved in
> >>>>>>>>> a conversation is not an artefact; it's more like a work of art,
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> gratuitous and organic complexity of conversation is an indelible
> >>>>>>>>> sign of
> >>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> >>>>>>>>> Seoul National University of Education
> >>>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 10/14/10, Paula M Towsey <paulat@johnwtowsey.co.za>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> From: Paula M Towsey <paulat@johnwtowsey.co.za>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Tom Toolery
> >>>>>>>>> To: ablunden@mira.net, "'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'" <
> >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 5:40 AM
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hello Andy-of-the-5-o'clock-shadow
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yet it's a different kind of gnashing of teeth (and wailing and
> >>>>>>>>> weeping)
> >>>>>>>>> when the baboons at Third Bridge get stuck into the tinned
> >>>>>>>>> supplies...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Paula
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Paula M Towsey
> >>>>>>>>> PhD Candidate: Universiteit Leiden
> >>>>>>>>> Faculty of Social Sciences
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >>>>>>>>> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> >>>>>>>>> On
> >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: 14 October 2010 13:19
> >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Tom Toolery
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> My answer, Paula: yes.
> >>>>>>>>> My body, with its various parts, is an artefact; according to
> >>>>>>>>> context,
> >>>>>>>>> symbol or tool.
> >>>>>>>>> My face and my 5 o'clock shadow is a symbol just as much as the
> >>>>>>>>> shirt
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> wear. My teeth a tool just as much as a can opener.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Paula M Towsey wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>  For some inexplicable reason while watching Mike's blind man with
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> stick video, I remembered smsing Carol with a quirky question: if
> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>> researcher without a knife is trying to open an airline packet of
> >>>>>>>>>> peanuts,
> >>>>>>>>>> and she resorts to using her teeth, what tool is she using?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Though, perhaps the better question would be - is she using a
> >>>>>>>>>> tool.?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> _________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Paula M Towsey
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> PhD Candidate: Universiteit Leiden
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Faculty of Social Sciences
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>  --
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>>>>>> Home Page:
> >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>>>>> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >>>>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> >>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> >>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>>> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <
> >>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> WORK as:
> Visiting Lecturer
> Wits School of Education
> HOME (please use these details)
> 6 Andover Road
> Westdene
> Johannesburg 2092
> +27 (0)11 673 9265   +27 (0)82 562 1050
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca


Lucas M. Bietti
Macquarie University
Universitat Pompeu Fabra

lucas@bietti.org
www.collectivememory.net
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca