Re: [xmca] Tom Toolery

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Thanks Lucas-- Lambros Malafouris's work is interesting. It is great to have
a card carrying
paleoarcheologist interested in hominization writing on this topic. if you
track down the papers
you will see that he traces the blind man/stick example back beyond bateson
to Merleau-Ponty
and he has seen the connection to ed hutchins.

Apropos of Peg's comments about encountering footprints in the sand, he has
not discerned
that the ways in which Dcog relates to chat, nor does he realize that there
is a large ontogenetic
literature, as well as cultural history literature, where this general meta
theory has been
discussed in detail.

It would sure be nice to be able to connect up all those dots.
mike

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Lucas Bietti <lucas@bietti.org> wrote:

>
> Michael, I totally agree with you. The man/can metaphor has been taken by a
> few
> scholars working on the extended mind thesis and material environments.
> Actually
> the most cited example that the creators of the extended mind theory (Clark
> &
> Chalmers, 1998) is a notebook. Today, due to the increasing popularity of
> technological devices, the iPhone has taken the place of the man/can
> metaphor
> and the notebook.
> I think that one of the theoretical foundations of the extended mind thesis
> can
> be the distinction between "engrams" and "exograms" (Donald, 1991) and the
> concept of "external storage devices". But there should be many more.
>
>
> To be honest, I would prefer to work with distributed cognition
> perspectives
> (Hutchins, Kirsh) rather than the extended mind. As we know, philosophers
> of the
> mind don't do empirical research "in the wild", and thereby, in my view,
> they
> don't have enough evidence to support claims about brain-body-world
> couplings.
> We must keep in mind that not any brain-body-world coupling is of as case
> of
> extension of the mind into the world. There are some specific requirements
> that
> such cognitive systems must meet to be considered as such.
>
> Lucas
>
>
> On October 14, 2010 at 11:50 AM Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > This is interesting Lucas - I took a look at the extended mind thesis and
> my
> > own gut feeling is that Bateson was more trying to solve a problem with
> his
> > man/cane metaphor than propose an idea.  The trouble with applying the
> > man/cane metaphor to lanuage is that once you throw a word out into the
> world
> > it has a really good chance of becoming detatched from you, from your
> mind,
> > from your thinking.  To me, right now it seems, Bateson was all about
> trying
> > to get rid of the mechanistic parts of cybernetics while maintaining the
> idea
> > of feedback loops.  There has to be some type of continuous connection as
> you
> > extend out or the system breaks down, and that is why language based
> systems
> > so often break down or go off kilter.  The thing about the cane is it
> > represents an actual visceral link between the mind and the world so that
> > there is a constant feedback loop.  It takes the extension of the mind to
> the
> > next level.  So to my thinking right now, and I may have this wrong from
> any
> > number of directions (lacking feedback loops to the ideas) Bateson is
> trying
> > to figure out something beyond the extended mind thesis.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Lucas Bietti
> > Sent: Thu 10/14/2010 10:05 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Tom Toolery
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As far as I know "the man with the stick" example appears in Steps to an
> > Ecology
> > of Mind(Bateson, 1972). This example is widely used by Lambros
> Malafouris, a
> > cognitive archaeologists at Cambridge who tries to develop a new theory
> on
> > material engagement and the extended mind thesis (Clark, 2008; Clark &
> > Chalmers).
> > Some of his papers can be downloaded from his webpage:
> >
> >
> > http://www.neuroscience.cam.ac.uk/directory/profile.php?lm243
> >
> >
> > Malafouris co-edited the book The Cognitive Life of Things: Archaeology,
> > Material Engagement and the Extended Mind. Cambridge: McDonald Institute
> > Monographs. This book came out a few months ago.
> >
> >
> > On this link you can also find an interesting paper on material memories
> and
> > the
> > extended mind:
> >
> >
> > http://www.phil.mq.edu.au/staff/jsutton/CognitiveLifeOfThings.htm
> >
> >
> > There is another book on the social life of things which might be of
> interest:
> >
> >
> >
> > Appadurai, A. (ed.). (1986). The Social Life of Things. Commodities in
> > Cultural
> > Perspective.Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> >
> > Lucas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On October 14, 2010 at 8:40 AM Paula M Towsey <paulat@johnwtowsey.co.za>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Andy-of-the-5-o'clock-shadow
> > >
> > > Yet it's a different kind of gnashing of teeth (and wailing and
> weeping)
> > > when the baboons at Third Bridge get stuck into the tinned supplies...
> > >
> > > Paula
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________
> > > Paula M Towsey
> > > PhD Candidate: Universiteit Leiden
> > > Faculty of Social Sciences
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > > Sent: 14 October 2010 13:19
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Tom Toolery
> > >
> > > My answer, Paula: yes.
> > > My body, with its various parts, is an artefact; according to context,
> > > symbol or tool.
> > > My face and my 5 o'clock shadow is a symbol just as much as the shirt I
> > > wear. My teeth a tool just as much as a can opener.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > Paula M Towsey wrote:
> > > > For some inexplicable reason while watching Mike's blind man with a
> > > > stick video, I remembered smsing Carol with a quirky question: if a
> > > > researcher without a knife is trying to open an airline packet of
> > > > peanuts, and she resorts to using her teeth, what tool is she using?
> > > >
> > > > Though, perhaps the better question would be - is she using a tool.?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________
> > > >
> > > > Paula M Towsey
> > > >
> > > > PhD Candidate: Universiteit Leiden
> > > >
> > > > Faculty of Social Sciences
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
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> > >
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> >
> >
> > Lucas M. Bietti
> > Macquarie University
> > Universitat Pompeu Fabra
> >
> > lucas@bietti.org
> > www.collectivememory.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
>
>
> Lucas M. Bietti
> Macquarie University
> Universitat Pompeu Fabra
>
> lucas@bietti.org
> www.collectivememory.net
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
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