Re: [xmca] ??????????, or, Vygotsky's Jabberwocky

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

What is fascinating me, Bella, is that one way to think about the process of
intereriozation is by
realizing that whatever was meant, it was not a copy theory. It IS a process
of "ingrowing" in some
sense, with twists, and stabs, and expulsions, and transformation.....

I am now thinking of two spirals, one oriented inward, one outward. Now if
only we knew the three four
bases........

mike

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com
> wrote:

> David, you may like or  not like the word interiorization (or may be better
> in English internalization), but that is the word (interiorizatsia), which
> LSV followers (Luria, Leontjev) have used and still use exactly in the
> context of development of HPF in the same meaning as vrazhivanie in the
> social- cultural context vrastanie is used.
> Bella
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Jorge Fernando Larreamendy Joerns <
> jlarream@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:
>
> > David,
> > Made-up words? Words that are? And words that aren't? Languages allow for
> > lexical creativity and the affordances are not infinite, actually they
> are
> > quite restricted, both synchronically and diachronically. I understand
> that
> > words, of course, in different languages may have different meanings, but
> I
> > believe it isn't a matter of whether or not a word is real or not. The
> > reality of words in an issue of use, not of institutional sanction, well
> of
> > course, except, artificially, in languages, such as Spanish, where there
> is
> > an anachronistic institution like La Real Academia de la Lengua (Royal
> > Academy of Speech? Language?)
> >
> > Jorge
> >
> >
> > Jorge
> >
> >
> > Jorge Larreamendy-Joerns, Ph.D.
> > Profesor Asociado y Director
> > Departamento de Psicología
> > Universidad de los Andes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 29, 2010, at 6:15 PM, David Kellogg wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, everybody (especially Rod). I hope that Professor
> Kotik-Friedgut
> > is not too annoyed with the question; it seems like a reasonable one to
> me.
> > >
> > > "Interiorization" has been proposed before (by James Lantolf), and Guk
> > and Kellogg (2007) rejected it because it suggested interior decoration,
> > architecture, and ultimately constructivism. Upon reflection, it seems
> > inadequate to me for three additional, linguistic, reasons:
> > >
> > > a) First of all, "interiorization" is a real word. When we translate a
> > poem like "Jabberwocky" into French or German, we need to use made-up
> words.
> > For example, the French translater of "slithy" is the word
> "lubricilleux",
> > which is not a real French word. My copy of Derrida's "Ecriture et
> > difference" is in English, and the title is mistranslated as "Writing and
> > Difference". The problem is that "difference" is a made up word in
> French.
> > For example "Intravolution" for example, is not a word in English, but
> > "interiorization" is.
> > >
> > > b) In English, "interiorization" is "to make a concept part of your
> inner
> > nature". This does not imply any restructuring, on either side. But for
> > Vygotsky, the key point here is transformation, restructuring, both the
> > concept and the interior must be entirely rebuilt in order for
> "вращивания"
> > to occur. That is why Mr. Bae emphasizes the connotation of "revolution"
> and
> > it seems to me that he is correct, so long as we remember the roots of
> the
> > English word "revolution", namely "turning around", "a turning point", a
> > churning, turning, not necessarily burning within.
> > >
> > > c) Not only does the word "interiorization" exist in English, but there
> > is also the word "exteriorization", which means the same thing as
> > "reification" or even "fetishism". Now, it seems to me that we DO need
> some
> > kind of counterpart to вращивания, because of course, as Vygotsky points
> > out, there are many mental functions which remain extramental throughout
> all
> > our lives. For example, when Mr. Yu borrows a book from me and does not
> read
> > it but only looks up information when I ask questions, we cannot say he
> has
> > "interiorized" the concepts of the book, but we cannot say he has
> > "exteriorized" them either. In any case, "reification", or fetishism, is
> not
> > the opposite of вращивания.
> > >
> > > So it seems to me that Rod's solution is the correct one, because it
> > contains the root "-volution" rather than "-terior" or "-culturation".
> The
> > metaphor we want is not the mind as a room, or as a plant, but as a
> polis, a
> > kind of city-state. In fact, it seems to me that the mind-as-community is
> a
> > not so much a metaphor as a microcosm.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 9/29/10, Katarina Rodina <katja@student.uv.uio.no> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Katarina Rodina <katja@student.uv.uio.no>
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] ??????????, or, Vygotsky's Jabberwocky
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 9:07 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > "Vraschivanie v kulturu" would indeed be well translated as "growing
> into
> > > culture" or "Enculturation"
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, September 29, 2010 16:50, Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote:
> > >> INTERIORIZATION!!!
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> > >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> How about 'intravolution'?
> > >>>
> > >>> Rod
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > >>> On
> > >>> Behalf Of David Kellogg
> > >>> Sent: 29 September 2010 00:53
> > >>> To: xmca
> > >>> Subject: [xmca] ??????????, or, Vygotsky's Jabberwocky
> > >>>
> > >>> We are wondering a little bit about how to translate made-up words,
> > like
> > >>> Vygotsky's "??????????" (in section 3 of Chapter 4 of Thinking and
> > >>> Speech.
> > >>>
> > >>> ?? ???? ??????? ????????? ????????? ??????, ??????? ?? ???????
> ????????
> > >>> ??????? ????????????, ?????? ??? ??? ??????????????? ?????? ?????
> ???,
> > >>> ???
> > >>> ??????? ???????? ?????? ??????, ?????????? ?????????? ????????? ? ?
> > >>> ????? ?
> > >>> ???? ???????????? ???????? ?????????. ??? - ???? ? ??? ??? ?????
> > >>> ??????????
> > >>> ? ???????? ???????, ??? - ??? ?????????? ??????????? ???????
> > >>> ????????????
> > >>> ??????????? ????????????? ? ???? ?????????? ??????.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> The English translations, as usual, seem way off: "ingrowing" sounds
> > >>> more
> > >>> like something unpleasant that happens with toenails, and "rooting"
> is
> > >>> too
> > >>> placid and botanical--and besides, "rooting" is NOT the THIRD stage
> of
> > >>> plant
> > >>> growth.
> > >>>
> > >>> Besides, they are real English words, and "??????????" is a
> portmanteau
> > >>> word, like "brillig" and "slithy" and "mimsy" in Carroll's poem of
> > >>> made-up
> > >>> words, "Jabberwocky".
> > >>>
> > >>> Last Sunday, Mr. Bae (who is a lurker and occasional contributor
> here)
> > >>> pointed out that "smysl" and "znachenie" are really related to the
> > >>> "money"
> > >>> metaphor for word meanings: "smysl" is something like "use value" and
> > >>> and
> > >>> "znachenie" is something like "exchange value".
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, it is PARTLY a matter of "microgenetic" value versus
> > "sociogenetic"
> > >>> value, except that of course microgenetic meaning is really much
> older.
> > >>> All
> > >>> meaning making is, in the final analysis, concrete, and that means
> that
> > >>> it
> > >>> is in the final analysis LOCAL.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I think there's a similar problem here.  "??????????" has the idea of
> > >>> "revolution", of "seizure of power" ("prise de conscience") but it
> also
> > >>> has
> > >>> the idea of turning a relation between people into a relation between
> > >>> mental
> > >>> functions, of transforming an external, imperialist war into an
> > >>> internal, civil, one; as the Weathermen used to say during the
> Vietnam
> > >>> era,
> > >>> "bringing the war home".
> > >>>
> > >>> The problem is that "??????????" is not an accepted Russian word.
> It's
> > >>> some
> > >>> kind of portmanteau word, right? It's a microgenetic "sense" rather
> > than
> > >>> some kind of sociocultural "meaning". How to get the USE value that
> > >>> Vygotsky
> > >>> intends?
> > >>>
> > >>> Perhaps "??????????" is "interiorevolution"?
> > >>>
> > >>> David Kellogg
> > >>> Seoul National University of Education
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> xmca mailing list
> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> xmca mailing list
> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Katarina A. Rodina
> > > Research Fellow (PhD)/Logoped,MNLL
> > > Department of Special Needs Education,
> > > University of Oslo, P.O.Box 1140 Blindern,
> > > NO-0318 Oslo, Norway
> > > Phone: +47 41 108 408/Fax:  +47 22 85 80 21
> > > E-mail: katarina.rodina@isp.uio.no
> > > http://staffdirectory.uv.uio.no/singleview/v1/index.php?user=katja
> > > http://katarinarodina.blogspot.com/
> > >
> > > Head of Russo-Norwegian Academic Relations,
> > > The Vygotsky Institute of Psychology/RSUH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
>
> --
>  Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
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