Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I think you and I share a lot of common understanding about spirals, Deb. So
did T.S. Eliot.
One issue is where to start from. VV Davydov sought to begin with a simple
example which contains all the properties of the most elabored, complicated,
example (not so simple to figure out what this is!).

For a lot of interesting discussions about spirals of development,
educational curricula, and sea snails, you might try googling spiral
curriculum or .....  some nice spiraling graphics and lots of intriguing
references.
mike


On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Deb Rockstroh <d_rockstroh@bigpond.com>wrote:

>
> Just adding my two cents worth ...
>
> The way I interpret Bruner's spiral curriculum is the idea of 'revisiting'
> a
> concept/topic progressively over time to develop the learner's
> understanding. That is, starting with the most simple/basic presentation of
> a concept then with each 'visit' (from early to late in curriculum),
> deepening, widening, making connections, extending complexity. I imagine
> the
> spiral represents many concepts (that the learner engages with) and over
> time, the notion of revisiting means these concepts connect to each other
> where they are relevant to the learner to become a set of beliefs or
> theories. Possibly similar to Vygotsky's 'everyday' and 'scientific'
> concepts (as I interpret them) where the latter is a more enduring type
> that
> has withstood repeated testing and verification (in the wider sociocultural
> sense).
>
>
> Deb
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of mike cole
> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:44 AM
> > To: Robert Lake
> > Cc: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> >
> > Thanks for all that Robert.
> > As I mentioned, I am interested in LSV's metaphors of development and I
> have
> > stored up some to
> > put together and present back to the group to think about,
> >
> > Just to respond to the bruner staircase metaphor and its embodiment in
> the
> > interesting graphic:
> >
> > Spirals result when you put a circle into motion. I think that the idea
> of
> a
> > spiral of development has to be very old indeed. It is all over
> catholicism.
> > For example, T.S. Eliot, in *Little Giddings"  *writes
> >
> > We shall not cease from exploration
> > And the end of all our exploring
> > Will be to arrive where we started
> > And know the place for the first time
> >
> > I have been thinking that the "penetration/sticking into" combined with
> the
> > "spinning around its axis" ideas could be usefully combined, especially
> when
> > one of the examples the Russian dictionary gives is poking yourself with
> a
> > stick! And the two examples given in the authoritative Dal dictionary
> > following the "growth" branch of vryashchivanie" bear some thought.
> >
> > 1. An ingrown toenail.
> >  2. A hut being absorbed by the earth.
> >
> > How is it that the toe and whether and how it is encased in leather part
> of
> > the day influences the ingrowing process?
> >
> > The hut, made of brick and beam and metal fittings cannot be absorbed by
> the
> > earth as if it was like the mixing of two bags of sugar. The beams and
> metal
> > fittings would, in more a pierce mode than an absorbative mode be
> > incorporated, grow into, be asorbed by the earth. The earth would, in the
> > short run at least, be modified by what it absorbed. The process can last
> a
> > long time. See a classic archeological site or visit Verdun.
> >
> > So we need time going both directions, "inside out and outside in" (where
> > inside and outside are themselves complex relational concepts) and parts
> of
> > the process (the metal beams vs the mud walls) disintegrating and being
> > absorbed into, with minimal structural change) the earth below the hut.
> >
> > Metaphorically speaking.
> >
> > mike
> > PS-- The diagram you sent is itself worth extensive discussion as a
> > potential embodiment of the idea of developmental instruction.
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Robert Lake
> > <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>wrote:
> >
> > > Mike,
> > > Here is a link to an interesting and simple illustration of Bruner's
> > > "spiral" curriculum at  work.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://projects.coe.uga.edu/epltt/images/5/59/Cognitive_9.gif
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > RL
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > >  Assistant Professor
> > >  Social Foundations of Education
> > >  Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > >  Georgia Southern University
> > >  P. O. Box 8144
> > >  Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > >  Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > >  Statesboro, GA  30460
> > >
> > > "Democracy must be born anew in every generation and education is its
> > > midwife".
> > > -John Dewey
> > >
> > > >>> mike cole  10/07/10 10:20 PM >>>
> > > You need to say more for me, Robert. How would that work?
> > >
> > > Spirals. Now there is an interesting geometric shape to consider. How
> did
> > > Bruner deploy it?
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Robert Lake wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > > Could the dialectical relationship between personal metaphor creation
> and
> > > > the processes involved in the "assimilation of terminology" provide
> an
> > > > example of Vygotsky's quest for synthesis between the disparate views
> of
> > > > early 20th century psychology?  Or perhaps to use Bruner's metaphor
> of
> > > the
> > > > spiral staircase........need I say more?
> > > > RL
> > > >
> > > > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > > >  Assistant Professor
> > > >  Social Foundations of Education
> > > >  Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > > >  Georgia Southern University
> > > >  P. O. Box 8144
> > > >  Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > > >  Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > >  Statesboro, GA  30460
> > > >
> > > > "Democracy must be born anew in every generation and education is its
> > > > midwife".
> > > > -John Dewey
> > > >
> > > > >>> David Kellogg  10/07/10 8:07 PM >>>
> > > > Vygotsky's metaphors are many and varied: peas in a sack (child
> > > concepts),
> > > > guerrilla warfare vs. prolonged seige (theoretical vs. empirical
> > > research),
> > > > and my all-time favorite, "science concepts do not drop into the
> child's
> > > > mouth like a flock of already roasted-pigeons".
> > > >
> > > > But it seems to me that any discussion of his use of analogy should
> > > include
> > > > his discussion of the LIMITS of metaphor. This is in the context of
> his
> > > > analogy between the learning of scientific concepts and the learing
> of
> > > > foreign language words, which can be found, in the Minick
> translation,
> in
> > > > Volume One, p. 223, of the Collected Works. Here's OUR translation:
> > > >
> > > > "In substance, our analogy always treats the development of two
> aspects
> > > of
> > > > a single and same process by their psychological nature: verbal
> thinking.
> > > In
> > > > the one case, that of the foreign language, what comes into the
> forefront
> > > is
> > > > the external, sonorous, phasal* properties of verbal thinking; in the
> > > other,
> > > > the development of scientific concepts, it is the semantic process of
> the
> > > > same process. For this reason the assimilation of a foreign language
> > > > doubtless requires, even though in a minimal measure, the mastery of
> the
> > > > semantic aspect of the foreign language, just as the development of
> > > > scientific concept requires, even to a minimal extent, some effort to
> > > master
> > > > scientific language, the symbols of science, which intervene in an
> > > evident
> > > > fashion during the assimilation of terminology and symbolic systems,
> such
> > > as
> > > > that of arithmetic. For this reason, one might expect from the very
> > > > beginning that we might find the analogy that we are developing here.
> Yet
> > > we
> > > > know
> > > >  that the development of the phasal and semantic aspects of language
> do
> > > not
> > > > repeat themselves but follow specific ways, and so we must expect
> that
> > > our
> > > > analogy will prove to be incomplete like any other analogy and that
> the
> > > > assimilation of a foreign language with respect to the maternal
> tongue
> > > shall
> > > > present resemblances to the development of scientific concepts with
> > > respect
> > > > to that of everyday concepts in some determined relations, while in
> > > others
> > > > there will be profound differences."
> > > >
> > > > And it seems to me that there's a very SIMPLE explanation for the
> failure
> > > > of the analogy, too. Every foreign language represents, in the final
> > > > analysis, somebody ELSE'S everyday concepts.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Achilles Delari Junior  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior
> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 4:37 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well...
> > > >
> > > > I also remember that in 1929 Vygotsky compared old psychological
> views
> > > with
> > > > the "Comedia del'Arte", because the fixed roles of the psychic
> functions
> > > > compared to the fixed roles of the characters in that kind of
> drama...
> > > This
> > > > is at the paper "Concrete human psychology" in English it was
> published
> > > at
> > > > Soviet Psychology, 1989, v. 17, n. 2 - but I don't have my copy of
> the
> > > > English version here anymore.... only a Portuguese version. In the
> same
> > > text
> > > > is present also the metaphor about consciousness as telephonist in
> > > contrast
> > > > and complementation to Pavlovian metaphor about brain as telephonic
> > > central,
> > > > if I remember well... This same subject was repeatead at the book
> "The
> > > > history of development of higher mental functions" from 1931 (In
> Spanish
> > > > edition of the Works, as in Russian, it is the Volume III)... A
> metaphor
> > > > with trains and rails was used as well, in reflexological discussion,
> for
> > > a
> > > > comparison with Sherrignton's contributions about much more afferent
> ways
> > > >  (rails) than efferent ones... but by memory I don't know more if
> this
> is
> > > > at that reflexological text from 1924 or from 1925... (Consciousness
> as
> > > > problem of behavior psychology). In the Psychology of Art, certainly
> he
> > > also
> > > > repeat the Sherington formulation, but I am not so sure about where
> was
> > > the
> > > > "train metaphor"... If you have interest in this "train" metaphor, I
> can
> > > > localize the actual sources, for this too...
> > > >
> > > > Best.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:05:08 -0700
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > Woa, not so sure about the train track metaphor. The train moves
> freely
> > > > up
> > > > > and down a pre-scribed
> > > > > track and the only thing that can vary "independently" is speed!
> Brrrr.
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Colette Murphy  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > One that I like a lot:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to Vygotsky the teacher should be the track upon which
> the
> > > > train
> > > > > > coaches move freely and independently. The track only gives the
> > > coaches
> > > > the
> > > > > > direction of their own movement.
> > > > > > (Vygotsky, A Reawakened Star:
> > > > > > http://www.marxist.com/science-old/vygotsky_501.html)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colette
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dr Colette Murphy
> > > > > > Senior Lecturer
> > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > > 69 University St
> > > > > > Queen's University
> > > > > > Belfast BT7 1HL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > tel: 02890975953
> > > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On
> > > > Behalf
> > > > > > Of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu]
> > > > > > Sent: 07 October 2010 21:15
> > > > > > To: Culture Activity eXtended Mind
> > > > > > Subject: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > > > I am gathering the use of metaphors in Vygotsky's work for a
> > > > publication
> > > > > > and want to be sure to include as many as possible.
> > > > > > without any knowledge of Russian along with the fact that I have
> > > > > > only recently begun a serious investigation of his work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In her essay on Vygotsky on Thinking and Speaking in the
> Cambridge
> > > > > > companion to Vygotsky,(2007) Vera John-Steiner cites some of
> > > Vygotsky's
> > > > most
> > > > > > famous examples, i.e. inner speech as "speech turning inward";
> > > thought
> > > > as a
> > > > > > "cloud shedding a shower of words"; "consciousness is reflected
> in
> a
> > > > word in
> > > > > > a word as the sun in a drop of water". (p.151).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes I know "tool" is a controversial example to some people :-).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can you folks think of any others ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank-you in advance for any help with this.
> > > > > > Robert Lake
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > > Social Foundations of Education
> > > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > > > > > Georgia Southern University
> > > > > > P. O. Box 8144
> > > > > > Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > > > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > > > > Statesboro, GA  30460
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education
> is
> > > its
> > > > > > midwife.
> > > > > > -John Dewey.
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
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