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Re: [xmca] need CHAT training



Dear Martin,

I sympathise as starting out in CHT based on vygotsky is not simple. firstly i suggest that you 
understand the different usages of the perspective such as has been put in place by Cole, Daniels, Engestrom and 
Rogoff, Gutierrez, Hedegaard etc etc. there are many usages of this initial theory and each has developed a particular 
way to address the method of investigation and the analysis. if you go back into the discussion on this site with Larry 
that was held in July August there were some papers distributed that might be of help. It was on a discussion on some 
of the interpretations of this theory.

I have to dash off to work now but will be happy to discuss more if you ask 
some further questions.
Steve thanks for all these links what a gold mine of data:)
Denise

----Message d'origine----

De: stevegabosch@me.com
Date: 08.09.2010 03:27
À: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Objet: Re: 
[xmca] need CHAT training

I think Martin suggests an excellent line of thinking.

Peter and Alcione, on reading your 
emails, the work of Kris Gutierrez  
immediately came to my mind.  You are working with college students  
and people 
about to enter the workforce, while Kris and colleagues  
have focused more on younger students and student-teacher 
relations,  
at least in the articles I am familiar with.  But the methodology she  
uses is strongly based on CHAT and 
could be very helpful.  So I am  
providing links to a few articles for you to browse.

As she and a colleague explain 
in a 2006 paper, "For more than a  
decade, we have been involved in research with students for whom  
English is not 
the home language, learning what children can do across  
a range of practices and contexts, and trying to understand 
better the  
various pathways and contextual supports that promote their literacy  
learning."

In fact, this first 
article I am providing a link to begins with the  
question Martin asks - of how to pose "the problem" in the first  

place.  Something to keep in mind is that by posing "cultural"  
identity and "professional" identity in the way you 
touch on in your e- 
mail, you are implicitly viewing not just culture but also social  
class in specific ways.  After 
all, you are training these pre-service  
teachers to be professional members of a workforce.  And being of non- 

dominant cultural backgrounds, they are also dealing with the issue of  
being members - or at least being considered 
members - of what is  
obviously a very large and varied language, cultural and ethnic  
minority in the US.  I 
especially appreciate the insights Kris and  
colleagues provide on those issues.  So this first article helps to  

drive out some of the problems involved with how to initially pose  
"the problem," just as Martin suggests.

Orellana, 
M. & Gutiérrez, K. (2006).  What's the problem? Constructing  
different genres for the study of English Learners. 
Research in the  
Teaching of English., 41 (1), 118-123.

http://gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/files/gutierrez/gutierrez_RT0411Last.pdf
************
This next article precedes the 
above one and describes some of the  
more general issues involved.  "In this brief essay, we take the  
opportunity to 
engage our literacy colleagues in a re-examination of  
approaches in describing English Learners and other non-
dominant  
students in literacy research."  In your case, you are training  
teachers who will be very engaged in such 
issues - as you are  
yourselves by conducting this study - and even just by being their  
teachers and part of their 
support system.

Gutiérrez, K. & Orellana, M. (2006). The problem of English Learners:  
Constructing genres of 
difference. .Research in the Teaching of  
English., 40 (4), 502-507.

http://gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/files/gutierrez/gutierrez_RT0404Last.pdf
*************

There are a few more articles 
available on Kris's site at http://gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/members/gutierrez
**************
On the lchc site is a paper 
Kris and two colleagues published in 1995  
that I found very interesting and which generated a very good  
discussion 
on xmca a few years ago, as I recall.  It discusses the  
underlife and counterscripts of students in what seems to me 
to be a  
typical LA classroom.  I worked in a factory for 28 years and some of  
the methodology Kris uses to analyze 
these classroom dynamics between  
the students and the teacher could be applied to worker-management  
relations on a 
factory floor (script and counterscript, underlife,  
cultural repertoires, etc.)  Possibly germane to your project, 
perhaps  
some the methodological ideas this article describes would also work  
in relation to the dynamics of 
training teachers, especially those  
with "hybrid" (Mexican, US, etc.) identities.

I liked the way Kris and 
colleagues in this article framed a number of  
ideas and tools from quite a variety of perspectives - Bakhtin,  

Bourdieu, Goffman, Gee, Geertz, Luke, Foucault, Vygotsky, Leont'ev,  
Cole, Engstrom, Rogoff, Lave, Wenger, Freire, and 
others - succinctly  
tied these ideas and tools together within a cultural-historical  
activity theory framework - 
and then showed how to apply these tools  
within this framework in an analysis of a recorded classroom  
situation.  
The title of the paper comes from one of the scenes being  
examined where the teacher is trying to teach a lesson 
about the 1954  
Supreme Court ruling Brown vs Bd of Education while students get  
laughs out of diverting the 
discussion toward James Brown and other  
jokes.  I think the paper offers some very interesting insights into  
what 
is actually going on.  My inclination is that this paper could  
serve as a possible model for doing certain kinds of 
empirical  
research and CHAT analysis - and in any case offers a very interesting  
methodological application of CHAT 
theory in a dynamic social  
situation where one side controls the script and the other side must  
empower itself with 
counterscripts and an underlife.

Script, Counterscript, and Underlife in the Classroom: James Brown  
versus Brown v. 
Board of Education.
by Kris Gutierrez, Betsy Rymes, University of California, Los Angeles
Joanne Larson, University of 
Rochester

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/kris.pdf
Sorry to throw so many articles at you.  My suggestion is to just  
browse and 
see what resonates.  I hope you find something helpful.

- Steve




On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Martin Packer wrote:


> Hi Alcione and Peter,
>
> First thing I say to anyone who comes to me for research advice is,  
> what question do 
you want to answer? The clearer the question, the  
> easier the decisions about conceptual framework and 
methodological  
> tools and techniques.
>
> Here the question seems to be: How does the development of these  
> 
student teachers' cultural identities interact with their  
> professional identities?  Can you articulate that a bit 
more for us?  
> For one thing, it seems to presuppose something that would need to  
> be confirmed, namely that there 
*is* an interaction between two  
> identities. That may well be the case, but it may be better to frame  
> the 
question in a more open ended way. Or perhaps that's not the  
> central question?
>
> Martin
>
> On Sep 7, 2010, at 4:
37 PM, Peter Farruggio wrote:
>
>>
>> This is a recent exchange between Mike and my colleague, Alcione  
>> Ostorga, 
about our interest in learning more about how to use CHAT  
>> for a longitudinal case study we'd like to do with a 
group of our  
>> bilingual preservice students.
>>
>> I'm going to follow Mike's suggestion and tap into the 
collective  
>> brain power on xmca to see if anybody can guide us in learning how  
>> to use CHAT
>>
>> Pete 
Farruggio
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Alcione Ostorga
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 4:03 PM

>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; Peter Farruggio
>> Subject: RE: need CHAT training
>>
>> Hello Mike,
>> Nice to meet you 
too.
>> I am on vacation this week so I may be a bit slow to reply.
>>
>> I am really interested in using CHAT for our 
studies.  From the  
>> little I have read about CHAT, I see that it offers a lot of  
>> potential for our multiple 
studies in bilingual preparation because  
>> in my opinion, it offers the most appropriate theoretical  
>> foundation 
to examine our bilingual teacher development.  I like  
>> the way it examines learning from a context based 
perspective,  
>> taking into consideration the sociocultural and historical  
>> aspects.   I really think that to 
understand the development of our  
>> pre service teachers we need to consider their history, their  
>> experiences 
both in our program and in their lives.  Since we are  
>> situated in the US/ Mexico border, the development of 
these  
>> preservice teachers is heavily impacted by their hybrid identities  
>> as both American and Mexican.  
Multilingualism is also an important  
>> component and we cannot forget the history of the area and how it  
>> 
impacts the overall development of everyone here.
>>
>> Our research project has multiple layers. Some of us are 
focusing  
>> on very specific aspects of our bilingual teacher preparation  
>> program.  I am particularly interested 
in examining the development  
>> of professional identities in our teachers and how the development  
>> of their 
cultural identities interacts with their professional  
>> identities. We have a lot of data. from cultural identity 
surveys  
>> and online discussions, educational philosophy assignments, focus  
>> group discussions that asked for 
their perspectives on the program  
>> and some incredible assignments. Some are very reflective, like the  
>> 
development of a classroom management plan and video analisis of  
>> thematic units used in teaching children in a 
sumer library  
>> program. In the fall, I will be doing observations of student  
>> teaching. As a long term plan, I 
will observe some of these  
>> participants when they become teachers.  I am interested in  
>> examining their growth 
as teachers longitudinally from the time  
>> they entered the program last fall semester to the completion of  
>> 
their first year as teachers which will be December of 2011.
>>
>> Although, I think CHAT is the way to go in my study, 
I must also  
>> state that I am a novice and have only recently become familiar  
>> with CHAT.  I realize that is a 
complex theory, because it is based  
>> on examining the world from multiple perspectives. I think this is  
>> one of 
the positive aspects of CHAT. After all, the world is  
>> complex and there are many simplistic approaches that are 
overly  
>> superficial and cannot possibly help us to fully understand human  
>> development.  I am not interested in 
those approaches. But because  
>> CHAT is complex, I feel I need to really learn it before I can use  
>> it.
>>
>> I 
am now getting familiar with the vocabulary and main concepts  
>> through a lit research of the latest writings and 
studies that have  
>> used CHAT.   A big question I have at this point is what kings of  
>> analytical methods are 
used in CHAT studies? Are qualitative  
>> methods generally applied in other kinds of studies also applied in  
>> 
studies that use CHAT as an analytical lens? Or have CHAT theorists  
>> developed their own methods for analyzing data 
that best fit  
>> activity theory? This is only the beginning, to fully use CHAT as a  
>> foundation for our 
research, we need to get some good professional  
>> development in the use of CHAT as a theoretical basis for our  
>> 
analysis and interpretations of the development of bilingual  
>> teachers.
>>
>> In the meantime, I will check the 
XMCA. Do we have to subscribe to  
>> the listserv to post questions?
>>
>> Thanks Pete for making this dialogue 
possible. Let's see if we can  
>> plan a video conference for us to learn more about how to use  
>> activity theory.

>>
>> Alcione
>>
>>
>> My
>>
>> Alcione N. Ostorga, Ph. D
>> Associate Professor
>> Department of Curriculum & 
Instruction
>> College of Education
>> The University of texas Pan-American
>> Edinburg, TX
>>
>>
>> 
________________________________
>> From: mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 6:13 PM
>> 
To: Peter Farruggio
>> Cc: Alcione Ostorga
>> Subject: Re: need CHAT training
>>
>> Peter--
>>
>> Skype works pretty 
well, even for small group- small group. I will  
>> think of other refs (some of Engestrom's papers come to mine  
>> 
because he follows cases and he is always thoughtful) but I cannot  
>> help recommending the chapter in Luria's 
chapter on romantic  
>> science from his autobio.
>>
>>
>> Hi Alcione, nice to meet you! Either you or Peter should 
get on  
>> XMCA and post the question about case studies and CHAT. I'll bet  
>> people have not thought much about 
that issue in that way, but  
>> rather, they have unconsciously been using case study methods under  
>> the banner of

>> "qualitative research". There are several such articles in Mind,  
>> Culture, and Activity over the years.
>>
>> 
mike
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Peter Farruggio  
>> <pfarruggio@utpa.edu<mailto:pfarruggio@utpa.edu>> 
wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> Thanks for the rapid, thoughtful reply. I'm copying to my  
>> colleague, Alcione Ostorga, 
because she's the one with the interest  
>> in using CHAT for the study. Several of us are interested, but  
>> she's 
the one who brought it up. She can jump in with a precis, as  
>> you suggest.
>>
>> I like the idea of doing a 
videoconference with you as an initial  
>> brainstorming session. We have the technical capacity to set  
>> something 
up to have an open conversation.
>>
>> Could you recommend some readings for us to do prior to such a  
>> 
conversation?  Maybe some concrete stuff that shows how others have  
>> used CHAT integrating the big picture 
(institutions, communities,  
>> local & state politics and policy making, etc) with the finer focus  
>> (our students 
moving through the system and into their careers)
>>
>> I'll wait for Alcione to explain to you before we think about 
some  
>> teleconferencing.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> Pete
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mike 
cole [lchcmike@gmail.com<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>]
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:44 PM
>> To: Peter Farruggio
>> 
Subject: Re: need CHAT training
>>
>> Pete-
>>
>> If you could perhaps send a precis of your proposal to XMCA, it  
>> 
would allow you to tap into a lot more brain power. The general  
>> issue of case studies from a CHAT perspective is a 
challenging one.  
>> Maybe Luria will make a comeback?
>>
>> Also, I can interact from skype or Polycom but basically 
do not  
>> travel any more. Maybe a preliminary chat about CHAT via that zero  
>> cost route would be helpful?
>> 
mike
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Peter Farruggio <pfarruggio@utpa.edu 
>> <mailto:pfarruggio@utpa.
edu><mailto:pfarruggio@utpa.edu<mailto:pfarruggio@utpa.edu 
>> >>> wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> We have a faculty team in 
bilingual teacher ed that has been  
>> working together for two years on research about our teacher  
>> preparation 
program. We'd like to do a longitudinal case study of  
>> some of our students as they finish with us and go into 
the  
>> teaching profession. We've already been teaching an experimental  
>> cohort of students as a pretty cohesive 
faculty team for the past  
>> three semesters.
>>
>> We'd like to do our study from a CHAT orientation, as best we  

>> understand it. To help us, we'd like to find a good CHAT "trainer"  
>> who could come down here to South Texas to 
meet with us and lead a  
>> professional development session about how to use CHAT with our  
>> circumstances. We 
have a federal grant, so we can pay a reasonable  
>> fee plus travel, lodging, etc.
>>
>> Would you recommend 
somebody, or put the word out to help us find  
>> such a person?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Pete Farruggio
>> University of 
Texas Pan American
>> Edinburg, TX
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
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