Re: [xmca] Question

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hi Armando et al--

I am not rejecting the idea of ideal action. I am asking what it means in
whose tradition. I think the concept arose in the discussion of perezhivanie
that Elina introduced.

The relation of idea and material is always puzzling to me, so it is in that
spirit that I ask. From my perspective, all culturally mediated action is
both material and ideal.
It may be that we have a case here similar to don norman suggesting a
special category of artifacts he calls "cultural artifacts" or Vygotsky
distinguishing psychological and non-psychological tools. I am not sure.
mike

2010/8/2 Armando Perez Yera <armandop@uclv.edu.cu>

> Mike: Does your message means that you don´t accept te concept of ideal
> action
> Armando
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf
> Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:08 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
>
> I do not know origin of this, but suspect it could be early Vygotsky.
> Sometimes it seems to me that some words, perezhivanie one of them,
> activity
> another, appear sometimes in LSV as technical terms, sometimes as everyday
> terms.
>
> If we use a deweyesque notion of experience, i find no problem in talking
> about consciousness as the experience of experriencing.
>
> I am still puzzling over the meaning of an ideal action (!).
> mike
>
> 2010/8/2 Elina Lampert-Shepel <ellampert@gmail.com>
>
> > I agree with mathematical logic, Achilles, but I do not think we talk
> about
> > reflex here.
> > Elina
> >
> > 2010/7/31 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Elina, Bela, Mike,
> > >
> > > I had read this as something as a "duplicated" character of
> > > consciousness... "Perezhivanie (nominative singular ok?) perezhivanii
> > > (genitive plural, ok?)" - this is a "second" kind of perezhivanie, "a
> > > perezhivanie from(of?) other perezhivanya"... I guess I could prefer
> the
> > > mathematic metaphor of "second potency" (x^2) than "duplication" (x.2),
> > but
> > > this is not the more important... You can remember that Vygotsky also
> > > defined consciousness as "reflex (nominative) of a reflex (genitive)"
> > too,
> > > is not correct? Than, the "reflexiveness" of consciousness, i.e., its
> > > "duplicated character" is justly represented by this "x of x"... even
> x=
> > > reflex or x=perezhivanie... spite perezhivanie and reflex must be not
> the
> > > same in may naive opinion... But I'm not so sure about the Russian
> words
> > for
> > > "reflex" in Pavlovian meaning of the term, and the word "reflection" as
> > > "image" (obraz???)... This two are the same? Of course one thing is I
> > have a
> > > perezhivanie from given reality, and another thing is I have another
> > > perezhivanie from that perezhivanie that I have from the first reality,
> > this
> > > is what Vygotsky was calling "consciousness", in my naive
> > understanding...
> > > This put in discussion the "meta-character" of cognition AND affective
> > > process, in consciousness social (semioticaly mediated) genesis...
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > > ***************************************
> > > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:40:19 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > Not to cause confusion, Bella, but I read it as follows:
> > >
> > > Consciousness is perizhivania of perezhivania, in exactly the same way
> > that
> > > perezhivanie is simply the (crux of/sut') perezhivania of objects.
> > Awkward
> > > to translate, but i can't see why reflection gets in there.
> > > Seems to change the meaning to introduce reflection.
> > > mike
> > > 2010/7/30 Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > > "Сознание есть переживание переживаний, точно таким же образом, как
> > > > переживания просто суть переживания предметов."
> > > >
> > > > My translation of the meaning would be: consciousness is a reflection
> > of
> > > > experiences the same way as just experience are simple reflection of
> > > > objects
> > > >
> > > > 2010/7/31 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you Elina, for your solidarity in respect my own "thinking in
> > > > > pronounced voice"...
> > > > >
> > > > > See, I have a question:  "Сознание есть переживание переживаний
> > > [soznanie
> > > > -
> > > > > est' perezhivaniye perezhivaniy]" (Vygotsky, 1925)...
> ["consciousness
> > > is
> > > > a
> > > > > 'living through' of a 'living through'"(?)]. Can we talk about
> > > > consciousness
> > > > > as something like a "meta-perezhivanie", in this case? :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > If so, this will be included in "meta-cognition"? Or meta-cognition
> > can
> > > > be
> > > > > included in this meta-"affective-cognitive unit"? I am not so
> > > actualized
> > > > in
> > > > > the contemporary conceptual definitions of "cognition", I guess...
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > > because I am asking for.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > >
> > > > > Achilles.
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S. Quote from Vigotski, 1925:
> > > > >
> > > > > <<Отдать отчет и значит перевести одни рефлексы в другие.
> > > > Бессознательное,
> > > > > психическое и означает рефлексы, не передающиеся в другие системы.
> > > > Возможны
> > > > > бесконечно разнообразные степени сознательности, т. е.
> взаимодействия
> > > > > систем, включенных в механизм действующего рефлекса. Сознание своих
> > > > > переживаний и означает не что иное, как имение их в качестве
> объекта
> > > > > (раздражителя) для других переживаний. Сознание есть переживание
> > > > > переживаний, точно таким же образом, как переживания просто суть
> > > > переживания
> > > > > предметов. Но именно способность рефлекса (переживания предмета)
> быть
> > > > > раздражителем (предметом переживания) для нового рефлекса -- этот
> > > > механизм
> > > > > сознательности и есть механизм передачи рефлексов из одной системы
> в
> > > > другую.
> > > > > Это приблизительно то же, что В. М. Бехтерев называет подотчетными
> и
> > > > > неподотчетными рефлексами. >> (VYGOTSKY, L. S. (1925/2005) Soznanie
> > kak
> > > > > problema psikhologuii povedeniia. Iz knigui ______. Psikhologuia
> > > > razvitiia
> > > > > tcheloveka. Moskva: Izdatel'stvo Smisl; Eksmo. - s. 30).
> > > > > **************************************
> > > > >
> > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:11:38 -0400
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
> > > > > From: ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Achilles,
> > > > >  Thank you very much for the contribution. There can't be an
> > > interruption
> > > > > as
> > > > > it is a polylogical space I suppose.If we connect the Vygotskian
> > > > > description
> > > > > of development of self/ "ya" in the ontogenesis, then it points to
> > the
> > > > > important connections between reflexivity and self consciousness.
> > > > >  - Crisis of seven years. Generalization of "perezivaniya" or as
> > > Vygotsky
> > > > > calls it logic of feelings. The dual position of the child in play
> (
> > > > > Imaginary situation:" I am a soldier in pain as I was wounded " and
> > > Real
> > > > > situation: My Mom is calling me for dinner and I am hungry) allows
> > the
> > > > > child
> > > > > to reflect on one of this "perezivanij' as the other, as object of
> > > > > reflection. In the process of the crisis of seven years as it is
> > noted
> > > in
> > > > > your last quote, the child because of the ability to distinguish
> > > external
> > > > > and internal, evaluate her own success and failure develops
> > self-esteem
> > > > and
> > > > > self -evaluation. It seems to me that reflection as a psychological
> > > tool
> > > > of
> > > > > experiencing imaginary and real position in play as well as the
> > > > > psychological tool that helps the child to look at herself as the
> > other
> > > > is
> > > > > the condition for the development of the initial forms of
> > > self-evaluation
> > > > > and self esteem through the crises of seven years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Interestingly enough in the research of Alexander Dusavitskii it
> was
> > > > argued
> > > > > that when elementary school students in Davydov-El'konin classrooms
> > > were
> > > > > asked to evaluate themselves, they would always evaluate their work
> > > lower
> > > > > that it was, because the self-evaluation that emerged through the
> > > crisis
> > > > of
> > > > > seven years was not developed in the context of learning activity.
> > How
> > > to
> > > > > evaluate my own learning was "terra incognita" for them.
> > > > >
> > > > >  *But the question is what is the role of "perezivaniye' in the
> > > > development
> > > > > of self-consciousness? * "Perezhivaniye" captures the unity of
> affect
> > > and
> > > > > intellect and this unity seems very important for the development
> of
> > > > > self-consciousness.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are my thoughts so far...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2010/7/30 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Mike and Elina,
> > > > > > This will not so deep as all you are talking about, but when I
> was
> > > > > reading
> > > > > > here I remember of your discussion, I made a little connection,
> > > because
> > > > > an
> > > > > > "auto-consciousness" influx for "auto-concept" (see the text
> about
> > > the
> > > > > > Crisis of Seven Years), and the first consciousness of child own
> > > > > > perezhivaniia, etc... Then this influx for me to the problem of
> the
> > > > > concept
> > > > > > of our own "Ya" ... Please if this could seems much
> extemporaneous,
> > > by
> > > > my
> > > > > > part, delete this message... But, let me try:
> > > > > > I - From Slovar' L.S. Vigoskogo (ed. A.A. Leont'ev, 2007):
> > > > > > Я - Понятие о <<Я>> развивается у
> > > > > > ребенка из понятия о других. (31.1, 163) Тот факт, что с
> > дошкольного
> > > > > > возраста человек начинает по-мнить
> > > > > > последовательность событий, -- это то, что
> > > > > > старые психологи называли единством и тождеством <<Я>>. (5.2,
> 130)
> > > > > > <...> ребенок учит-ся в игре своему <<Я>>: создавая фиктивные
> точки
> > > > > > идентификации -- центры <<Я>>: irde социальная
> > > > > > природа <<Я>>. Ср. Rollenspiel (ролевая игра). <...> ребенок
> имеет
> > > > > > уже <<Я>>, но не осознает его, имеет внутренние процессы, но не
> > > сознает
> > > > > их --
> > > > > > в игре prise de conscience о себе и своем сознании <...>
> > Обозначение
> > > > > <<Я>> в
> > > > > > игре, осознание мысли, <<я хочу>> -- в игре <."> Парадокс <<Я>>:
> в
> > > игре
> > > > > то
> > > > > > радует, что я хочу,
> > > > > > эгоцентри-ческая деятельность; но здесь же ограничение изнутри от
> > > > своего
> > > > > > мо-ментального
> > > > > > <<Я>>. (23.1, 291)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > См. Возраст, Игра, Понятие
> > > > > > See: "prise de conscience о себе"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The actual references:
> > > > > > * 33.1: Эйдетика // Хрестоматия по ощущению и восприятию. М.,
> 1975.
> > > С.
> > > > > > 275-281 (1930)
> > > > > > * 5.2: Обучение и развитие в дошкольном
> > > > > > возрасте // Выготский. М.,1.С. 123-134
> > > > > > (1933)
> > > > > > * 23.1: Из записок-конспекта Л.С.
> > > > > > Выготского к лекциям по психоло-гии детей дошкольного возраста //
> > > > > Эльконин
> > > > > > Д.Б. Психология игры. М., 1978. С. 289-294 (1933)
> > > > > > ************************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > II - From "Seven Years Crisis" (Tom IV):
> > > > > > "В 7-летнем возрасте мы имеем дело с началом возникновения такой
> > > > > структуры
> > > > > > переживаний, когда ребенок начинает понимать, что значит <<я
> > > радуюсь>>,
> > > > > <<я
> > > > > > огорчен>>, <<я сердит>>, <<я добрый>>, <<я злой>>, т. е. у него
> > > > возникает
> > > > > > осмысленная ориентировка в собственных переживаниях. Точно так,
> как
> > > > > ребенок
> > > > > > 3 лет открывает свое отношение с другими людьми, так семилетка
> > > > открывает
> > > > > сам
> > > > > > факт своих переживаний. Благодаря этому выступают некоторые
> > > > особенности,
> > > > > > характеризующие кризис семи лет.
> > > > > > 1. Переживания приобретают смысл (сердящийся ребенок понимает,
> что
> > он
> > > > > > сердит), благодаря этому у ребенка возникают такие новые
> отношения
> > к
> > > > > себе,
> > > > > > которые были невозможны до обобщения переживаний. Как на
> шахматной
> > > > доске,
> > > > > > когда с каждым ходом возникают совершенно новые связи между
> > > фигурками,
> > > > > так и
> > > > > > здесь возникают совсем новые связи между переживаниями, когда они
> > > > > > приобретают известный смысл. Следовательно, весь характер
> > переживаний
> > > > > > ребенка к 7 годам перестраивается, как перестраивается шахматная
> > > доска,
> > > > > > когда ребенок научился играть в шахматы.
> > > > > > 2. К кризису семи лет впервые возникает обобщение переживаний,
> или
> > > > > > аффективное обобщение, логика чувств. Есть глубоко отсталые дети,
> > > > которые
> > > > > на
> > > > > > каждом шагу переживают неудачи: обычные дети играют, ненормальный
> > > > ребенок
> > > > > > пытается присоединиться к ним, но ему отказывают, он идет по
> улице,
> > и
> > > > над
> > > > > > ним смеются. Одним словом, он на каждом шагу проигрывает. В
> каждом
> > > > > отдельном
> > > > > > случае у него есть реакция на собственную недостаточность, а
> через
> > > > минуту
> > > > > > смотришь -- он совершенно доволен собой. Тысячи отдельных неудач,
> а
> > > > > общего
> > > > > > чувства своей малоценности нет, он не обобщает того, что
> случалось
> > > уже
> > > > > много
> > > > > > раз. У ребенка школьного возраста возникает обобщение чувств, т.
> > е.,
> > > > если
> > > > > с
> > > > > > ним много раз случалась какая-то ситуация, у него" (page 379,
> S.S.
> > > Tom.
> > > > > IV -
> > > > > > 1984)
> > > > > > "возникает аффективное образование, характер которого так же
> > > относится
> > > > к
> > > > > > единичному переживанию или аффекту, как понятие относится к
> > > единичному
> > > > > > восприятию или воспоминанию. Например, у ребенка дошкольного
> > возраста
> > > > нет
> > > > > > настоящей самооценки, самолюбия. Уровень наших запросов к самим
> > себе,
> > > к
> > > > > > нашему успеху, к нашему положению возникает именно в связи с
> > кризисом
> > > > > семи
> > > > > > лет.
> > > > > > Ребенок дошкольного возраста любит себя, но самолюбия как
> > обобщенного
> > > > > > отношения к самому себе, которое остается одним и тем же в разных
> > > > > ситуациях,
> > > > > > но самооценки как таковой, но обобщенных отношений к окружающим и
> > > > > понимания
> > > > > > своей ценности у ребенка этого возраста нет. Следовательно, к 7
> > годам
> > > > > > возникает ряд сложных образований, которые и приводят к тому, что
> > > > > трудности
> > > > > > поведения резко и коренным образом меняются, они принципиально
> > > отличны
> > > > от
> > > > > > трудностей дошкольного возраста.
> > > > > > Такие новообразования, как самолюбие, самооценка, остаются, а
> > > симптомы
> > > > > > кризиса (манерничанье, кривляние) преходящи. В кризисе семи лет
> > > > благодаря
> > > > > > тому, что возникает дифференциация внутреннего и внешнего, что
> > > впервые
> > > > > > возникает смысловое переживание, возникает и острая борьба
> > > переживаний.
> > > > > > Ребенок, который не знает, какие взять конфеты -- побольше или
> > > послаще,
> > > > > не
> > > > > > находится в состоянии внутренней борьбы, хотя он и колеблется.
> > > > Внутренняя
> > > > > > борьба (противоречия переживаний и выбор собственных переживаний)
> > > > > становится
> > > > > > возможна только теперь. (etc.)"(page 380. S.S. Tom IV - 1984)
> > > > > > *********************
> > > > > > Well, here in this second quote, I'm no so insecure as about the
> > > > "concept
> > > > > > of Ya". Because I understand that there is something related to
> > your
> > > > > > discussion, in important ontogenetic terms... I only remain don't
> > > > > > contributing about the own "name" that you search for... But the
> > > > process
> > > > > > itself seems to be within the same semantic field.
> > > > > > Thank you, and forgive me the interruption.
> > > > > > Best wishes.Achilles,from Brazil
> > > > > > *************
> > > > > > > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:03:45 -0400
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
> > > > > > > From: ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > CC:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike -
> > > > > > > I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks
> > ago,
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long
> > > > conversation
> > > > > > > about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say
> > > > > "reflexia".
> > > > > > He
> > > > > > > talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of
> > > > > > "self-consciousness"
> > > > > > > and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development
> > of
> > > > > > > self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of
> > > > "self-consciousness"
> > > > > (
> > > > > > > that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully
> in
> > > > > > > cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack
> > of
> > > > > bridge
> > > > > > > between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical
> > > > research,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect
> reflection
> > (
> > > > > > > "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you
> > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of
> > > > > > meta-cognition.
> > > > > > > It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized
> > > > reflection
> > > > > as
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as
> a
> > > > > > cognitive,
> > > > > > > or metacognitive process. There is also an important language
> > > > > difference,
> > > > > > > Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word
> > > reflection,
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of
> higher
> > > > > > > psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky
> > > meant
> > > > by
> > > > > > > function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and
> as
> > > we
> > > > > > > discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-),
> but
> > > > > Gennadi
> > > > > > > and I believe that reflection and will are not higher
> > psychological
> > > > > > > functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for
> the
> > > > ISCAR
> > > > > > > symposium on these issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the
> > > > > development
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily
> > > rooted
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > Russian philosophical thought.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions
> > for
> > > > > > further
> > > > > > > questioning will be highly appreciated.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Elina--
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who
> > were
> > > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that
> there
> > > > seem
> > > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways
> > with
> > > > > > > > "self-consciousness."  Terms in the family of reflectivity,
> > > > > reflexivity
> > > > > > > > came
> > > > > > > > up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying
> hard
> > to
> > > > > > figure
> > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > what the right English words were for whatever Russian term
> was
> > > > being
> > > > > > used.
> > > > > > > > Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as
> > well,
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the
> question?
> > > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <
> > > lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign
> off
> > > > with
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > Tagore.  It  captures the central imperative of
> foregrounding
> > > > > >  context
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the
> > string]
> > > > BUT
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > without the string there is no violin.
> > > > > > > > > I find myself often reflecting on the implications this
> > > > perspective
> > > > > > > > > elaborates.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of
> > > > > > > > > self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the
> Historical
> > > > roots
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
> > > > > > > > > <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi, everyone,
> > > > > > > > > > I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications
> on
> > > > > > > > > > self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am
> > > > > > interested in
> > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > references on this issue.
> > > > > > > > > >  Thanks in advance,
> > > > > > > > > >  Elina
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist
> one
> > > end
> > > > > of
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a
> violin
> > > > > string
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it
> in
> > my
> > > > > > violin
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a
> > > > violin
> > > > > > > > string.
> > > > > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end
> > of
> > > it
> > > > > and
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
> > string
> > > is
> > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> > > violin
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a
> violin
> > > > > string.
> > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
> it
> > > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string
> is
> > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> violin
> > > and
> > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> > > string.
> > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >         _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >         _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it and
> > it
> > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
> > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin and
> > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin string.
> > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas. http://www.uclv.edu.cu
>
> Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas. http://www.uclv.edu.cu
>
>

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