Re: [xmca] Question

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Mike

The term "ideal action" triggered a response about "anticipatory action" or
"imaginary action" as  forms of "reflective action"
It is action which coordinates  POSIIBLE  ALTERNATIVE responses to a
particular societal situation.
I'm not sure how these notions are linked up with "ideal action" BUT
anticipatory action is "real" in the sense that it ACTUALLY MODIFIES SOCIAL
ACTS.

Larry

2010/8/2 mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>

> I do not know origin of this, but suspect it could be early Vygotsky.
> Sometimes it seems to me that some words, perezhivanie one of them,
> activity
> another, appear sometimes in LSV as technical terms, sometimes as everyday
> terms.
>
> If we use a deweyesque notion of experience, i find no problem in talking
> about consciousness as the experience of experriencing.
>
> I am still puzzling over the meaning of an ideal action (!).
> mike
>
> 2010/8/2 Elina Lampert-Shepel <ellampert@gmail.com>
>
> > I agree with mathematical logic, Achilles, but I do not think we talk
> about
> > reflex here.
> > Elina
> >
> > 2010/7/31 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Elina, Bela, Mike,
> > >
> > > I had read this as something as a "duplicated" character of
> > > consciousness... "Perezhivanie (nominative singular ok?) perezhivanii
> > > (genitive plural, ok?)" - this is a "second" kind of perezhivanie, "a
> > > perezhivanie from(of?) other perezhivanya"... I guess I could prefer
> the
> > > mathematic metaphor of "second potency" (x^2) than "duplication" (x.2),
> > but
> > > this is not the more important... You can remember that Vygotsky also
> > > defined consciousness as "reflex (nominative) of a reflex (genitive)"
> > too,
> > > is not correct? Than, the "reflexiveness" of consciousness, i.e., its
> > > "duplicated character" is justly represented by this "x of x"... even
> x=
> > > reflex or x=perezhivanie... spite perezhivanie and reflex must be not
> the
> > > same in may naive opinion... But I'm not so sure about the Russian
> words
> > for
> > > "reflex" in Pavlovian meaning of the term, and the word "reflection" as
> > > "image" (obraz???)... This two are the same? Of course one thing is I
> > have a
> > > perezhivanie from given reality, and another thing is I have another
> > > perezhivanie from that perezhivanie that I have from the first reality,
> > this
> > > is what Vygotsky was calling "consciousness", in my naive
> > understanding...
> > > This put in discussion the "meta-character" of cognition AND affective
> > > process, in consciousness social (semioticaly mediated) genesis...
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > > ***************************************
> > > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:40:19 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > Not to cause confusion, Bella, but I read it as follows:
> > >
> > > Consciousness is perizhivania of perezhivania, in exactly the same way
> > that
> > > perezhivanie is simply the (crux of/sut') perezhivania of objects.
> > Awkward
> > > to translate, but i can't see why reflection gets in there.
> > > Seems to change the meaning to introduce reflection.
> > > mike
> > > 2010/7/30 Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > > "Сознание есть переживание переживаний, точно таким же образом, как
> > > > переживания просто суть переживания предметов."
> > > >
> > > > My translation of the meaning would be: consciousness is a reflection
> > of
> > > > experiences the same way as just experience are simple reflection of
> > > > objects
> > > >
> > > > 2010/7/31 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you Elina, for your solidarity in respect my own "thinking in
> > > > > pronounced voice"...
> > > > >
> > > > > See, I have a question:  "Сознание есть переживание переживаний
> > > [soznanie
> > > > -
> > > > > est' perezhivaniye perezhivaniy]" (Vygotsky, 1925)...
> ["consciousness
> > > is
> > > > a
> > > > > 'living through' of a 'living through'"(?)]. Can we talk about
> > > > consciousness
> > > > > as something like a "meta-perezhivanie", in this case? :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > If so, this will be included in "meta-cognition"? Or meta-cognition
> > can
> > > > be
> > > > > included in this meta-"affective-cognitive unit"? I am not so
> > > actualized
> > > > in
> > > > > the contemporary conceptual definitions of "cognition", I guess...
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > > because I am asking for.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > >
> > > > > Achilles.
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S. Quote from Vigotski, 1925:
> > > > >
> > > > > <<Отдать отчет и значит перевести одни рефлексы в другие.
> > > > Бессознательное,
> > > > > психическое и означает рефлексы, не передающиеся в другие системы.
> > > > Возможны
> > > > > бесконечно разнообразные степени сознательности, т. е.
> взаимодействия
> > > > > систем, включенных в механизм действующего рефлекса. Сознание своих
> > > > > переживаний и означает не что иное, как имение их в качестве
> объекта
> > > > > (раздражителя) для других переживаний. Сознание есть переживание
> > > > > переживаний, точно таким же образом, как переживания просто суть
> > > > переживания
> > > > > предметов. Но именно способность рефлекса (переживания предмета)
> быть
> > > > > раздражителем (предметом переживания) для нового рефлекса -- этот
> > > > механизм
> > > > > сознательности и есть механизм передачи рефлексов из одной системы
> в
> > > > другую.
> > > > > Это приблизительно то же, что В. М. Бехтерев называет подотчетными
> и
> > > > > неподотчетными рефлексами. >> (VYGOTSKY, L. S. (1925/2005) Soznanie
> > kak
> > > > > problema psikhologuii povedeniia. Iz knigui ______. Psikhologuia
> > > > razvitiia
> > > > > tcheloveka. Moskva: Izdatel'stvo Smisl; Eksmo. - s. 30).
> > > > > **************************************
> > > > >
> > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:11:38 -0400
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
> > > > > From: ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Achilles,
> > > > >  Thank you very much for the contribution. There can't be an
> > > interruption
> > > > > as
> > > > > it is a polylogical space I suppose.If we connect the Vygotskian
> > > > > description
> > > > > of development of self/ "ya" in the ontogenesis, then it points to
> > the
> > > > > important connections between reflexivity and self consciousness.
> > > > >  - Crisis of seven years. Generalization of "perezivaniya" or as
> > > Vygotsky
> > > > > calls it logic of feelings. The dual position of the child in play
> (
> > > > > Imaginary situation:" I am a soldier in pain as I was wounded " and
> > > Real
> > > > > situation: My Mom is calling me for dinner and I am hungry) allows
> > the
> > > > > child
> > > > > to reflect on one of this "perezivanij' as the other, as object of
> > > > > reflection. In the process of the crisis of seven years as it is
> > noted
> > > in
> > > > > your last quote, the child because of the ability to distinguish
> > > external
> > > > > and internal, evaluate her own success and failure develops
> > self-esteem
> > > > and
> > > > > self -evaluation. It seems to me that reflection as a psychological
> > > tool
> > > > of
> > > > > experiencing imaginary and real position in play as well as the
> > > > > psychological tool that helps the child to look at herself as the
> > other
> > > > is
> > > > > the condition for the development of the initial forms of
> > > self-evaluation
> > > > > and self esteem through the crises of seven years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Interestingly enough in the research of Alexander Dusavitskii it
> was
> > > > argued
> > > > > that when elementary school students in Davydov-El'konin classrooms
> > > were
> > > > > asked to evaluate themselves, they would always evaluate their work
> > > lower
> > > > > that it was, because the self-evaluation that emerged through the
> > > crisis
> > > > of
> > > > > seven years was not developed in the context of learning activity.
> > How
> > > to
> > > > > evaluate my own learning was "terra incognita" for them.
> > > > >
> > > > >  *But the question is what is the role of "perezivaniye' in the
> > > > development
> > > > > of self-consciousness? * "Perezhivaniye" captures the unity of
> affect
> > > and
> > > > > intellect and this unity seems very important for the development
> of
> > > > > self-consciousness.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are my thoughts so far...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2010/7/30 Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Mike and Elina,
> > > > > > This will not so deep as all you are talking about, but when I
> was
> > > > > reading
> > > > > > here I remember of your discussion, I made a little connection,
> > > because
> > > > > an
> > > > > > "auto-consciousness" influx for "auto-concept" (see the text
> about
> > > the
> > > > > > Crisis of Seven Years), and the first consciousness of child own
> > > > > > perezhivaniia, etc... Then this influx for me to the problem of
> the
> > > > > concept
> > > > > > of our own "Ya" ... Please if this could seems much
> extemporaneous,
> > > by
> > > > my
> > > > > > part, delete this message... But, let me try:
> > > > > > I - From Slovar' L.S. Vigoskogo (ed. A.A. Leont'ev, 2007):
> > > > > > Я - Понятие о <<Я>> развивается у
> > > > > > ребенка из понятия о других. (31.1, 163) Тот факт, что с
> > дошкольного
> > > > > > возраста человек начинает по-мнить
> > > > > > последовательность событий, -- это то, что
> > > > > > старые психологи называли единством и тождеством <<Я>>. (5.2,
> 130)
> > > > > > <...> ребенок учит-ся в игре своему <<Я>>: создавая фиктивные
> точки
> > > > > > идентификации -- центры <<Я>>: irde социальная
> > > > > > природа <<Я>>. Ср. Rollenspiel (ролевая игра). <...> ребенок
> имеет
> > > > > > уже <<Я>>, но не осознает его, имеет внутренние процессы, но не
> > > сознает
> > > > > их --
> > > > > > в игре prise de conscience о себе и своем сознании <...>
> > Обозначение
> > > > > <<Я>> в
> > > > > > игре, осознание мысли, <<я хочу>> -- в игре <."> Парадокс <<Я>>:
> в
> > > игре
> > > > > то
> > > > > > радует, что я хочу,
> > > > > > эгоцентри-ческая деятельность; но здесь же ограничение изнутри от
> > > > своего
> > > > > > мо-ментального
> > > > > > <<Я>>. (23.1, 291)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > См. Возраст, Игра, Понятие
> > > > > > See: "prise de conscience о себе"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The actual references:
> > > > > > * 33.1: Эйдетика // Хрестоматия по ощущению и восприятию. М.,
> 1975.
> > > С.
> > > > > > 275-281 (1930)
> > > > > > * 5.2: Обучение и развитие в дошкольном
> > > > > > возрасте // Выготский. М.,1.С. 123-134
> > > > > > (1933)
> > > > > > * 23.1: Из записок-конспекта Л.С.
> > > > > > Выготского к лекциям по психоло-гии детей дошкольного возраста //
> > > > > Эльконин
> > > > > > Д.Б. Психология игры. М., 1978. С. 289-294 (1933)
> > > > > > ************************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > II - From "Seven Years Crisis" (Tom IV):
> > > > > > "В 7-летнем возрасте мы имеем дело с началом возникновения такой
> > > > > структуры
> > > > > > переживаний, когда ребенок начинает понимать, что значит <<я
> > > радуюсь>>,
> > > > > <<я
> > > > > > огорчен>>, <<я сердит>>, <<я добрый>>, <<я злой>>, т. е. у него
> > > > возникает
> > > > > > осмысленная ориентировка в собственных переживаниях. Точно так,
> как
> > > > > ребенок
> > > > > > 3 лет открывает свое отношение с другими людьми, так семилетка
> > > > открывает
> > > > > сам
> > > > > > факт своих переживаний. Благодаря этому выступают некоторые
> > > > особенности,
> > > > > > характеризующие кризис семи лет.
> > > > > > 1. Переживания приобретают смысл (сердящийся ребенок понимает,
> что
> > он
> > > > > > сердит), благодаря этому у ребенка возникают такие новые
> отношения
> > к
> > > > > себе,
> > > > > > которые были невозможны до обобщения переживаний. Как на
> шахматной
> > > > доске,
> > > > > > когда с каждым ходом возникают совершенно новые связи между
> > > фигурками,
> > > > > так и
> > > > > > здесь возникают совсем новые связи между переживаниями, когда они
> > > > > > приобретают известный смысл. Следовательно, весь характер
> > переживаний
> > > > > > ребенка к 7 годам перестраивается, как перестраивается шахматная
> > > доска,
> > > > > > когда ребенок научился играть в шахматы.
> > > > > > 2. К кризису семи лет впервые возникает обобщение переживаний,
> или
> > > > > > аффективное обобщение, логика чувств. Есть глубоко отсталые дети,
> > > > которые
> > > > > на
> > > > > > каждом шагу переживают неудачи: обычные дети играют, ненормальный
> > > > ребенок
> > > > > > пытается присоединиться к ним, но ему отказывают, он идет по
> улице,
> > и
> > > > над
> > > > > > ним смеются. Одним словом, он на каждом шагу проигрывает. В
> каждом
> > > > > отдельном
> > > > > > случае у него есть реакция на собственную недостаточность, а
> через
> > > > минуту
> > > > > > смотришь -- он совершенно доволен собой. Тысячи отдельных неудач,
> а
> > > > > общего
> > > > > > чувства своей малоценности нет, он не обобщает того, что
> случалось
> > > уже
> > > > > много
> > > > > > раз. У ребенка школьного возраста возникает обобщение чувств, т.
> > е.,
> > > > если
> > > > > с
> > > > > > ним много раз случалась какая-то ситуация, у него" (page 379,
> S.S.
> > > Tom.
> > > > > IV -
> > > > > > 1984)
> > > > > > "возникает аффективное образование, характер которого так же
> > > относится
> > > > к
> > > > > > единичному переживанию или аффекту, как понятие относится к
> > > единичному
> > > > > > восприятию или воспоминанию. Например, у ребенка дошкольного
> > возраста
> > > > нет
> > > > > > настоящей самооценки, самолюбия. Уровень наших запросов к самим
> > себе,
> > > к
> > > > > > нашему успеху, к нашему положению возникает именно в связи с
> > кризисом
> > > > > семи
> > > > > > лет.
> > > > > > Ребенок дошкольного возраста любит себя, но самолюбия как
> > обобщенного
> > > > > > отношения к самому себе, которое остается одним и тем же в разных
> > > > > ситуациях,
> > > > > > но самооценки как таковой, но обобщенных отношений к окружающим и
> > > > > понимания
> > > > > > своей ценности у ребенка этого возраста нет. Следовательно, к 7
> > годам
> > > > > > возникает ряд сложных образований, которые и приводят к тому, что
> > > > > трудности
> > > > > > поведения резко и коренным образом меняются, они принципиально
> > > отличны
> > > > от
> > > > > > трудностей дошкольного возраста.
> > > > > > Такие новообразования, как самолюбие, самооценка, остаются, а
> > > симптомы
> > > > > > кризиса (манерничанье, кривляние) преходящи. В кризисе семи лет
> > > > благодаря
> > > > > > тому, что возникает дифференциация внутреннего и внешнего, что
> > > впервые
> > > > > > возникает смысловое переживание, возникает и острая борьба
> > > переживаний.
> > > > > > Ребенок, который не знает, какие взять конфеты -- побольше или
> > > послаще,
> > > > > не
> > > > > > находится в состоянии внутренней борьбы, хотя он и колеблется.
> > > > Внутренняя
> > > > > > борьба (противоречия переживаний и выбор собственных переживаний)
> > > > > становится
> > > > > > возможна только теперь. (etc.)"(page 380. S.S. Tom IV - 1984)
> > > > > > *********************
> > > > > > Well, here in this second quote, I'm no so insecure as about the
> > > > "concept
> > > > > > of Ya". Because I understand that there is something related to
> > your
> > > > > > discussion, in important ontogenetic terms... I only remain don't
> > > > > > contributing about the own "name" that you search for... But the
> > > > process
> > > > > > itself seems to be within the same semantic field.
> > > > > > Thank you, and forgive me the interruption.
> > > > > > Best wishes.Achilles,from Brazil
> > > > > > *************
> > > > > > > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:03:45 -0400
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
> > > > > > > From: ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > CC:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike -
> > > > > > > I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks
> > ago,
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long
> > > > conversation
> > > > > > > about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say
> > > > > "reflexia".
> > > > > > He
> > > > > > > talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of
> > > > > > "self-consciousness"
> > > > > > > and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development
> > of
> > > > > > > self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of
> > > > "self-consciousness"
> > > > > (
> > > > > > > that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully
> in
> > > > > > > cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack
> > of
> > > > > bridge
> > > > > > > between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical
> > > > research,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect
> reflection
> > (
> > > > > > > "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you
> > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of
> > > > > > meta-cognition.
> > > > > > > It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized
> > > > reflection
> > > > > as
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as
> a
> > > > > > cognitive,
> > > > > > > or metacognitive process. There is also an important language
> > > > > difference,
> > > > > > > Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word
> > > reflection,
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of
> higher
> > > > > > > psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky
> > > meant
> > > > by
> > > > > > > function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and
> as
> > > we
> > > > > > > discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-),
> but
> > > > > Gennadi
> > > > > > > and I believe that reflection and will are not higher
> > psychological
> > > > > > > functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for
> the
> > > > ISCAR
> > > > > > > symposium on these issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the
> > > > > development
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily
> > > rooted
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > Russian philosophical thought.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions
> > for
> > > > > > further
> > > > > > > questioning will be highly appreciated.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Elina--
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who
> > were
> > > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that
> there
> > > > seem
> > > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways
> > with
> > > > > > > > "self-consciousness."  Terms in the family of reflectivity,
> > > > > reflexivity
> > > > > > > > came
> > > > > > > > up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying
> hard
> > to
> > > > > > figure
> > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > what the right English words were for whatever Russian term
> was
> > > > being
> > > > > > used.
> > > > > > > > Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as
> > well,
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the
> question?
> > > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <
> > > lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign
> off
> > > > with
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > Tagore.  It  captures the central imperative of
> foregrounding
> > > > > >  context
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the
> > string]
> > > > BUT
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > without the string there is no violin.
> > > > > > > > > I find myself often reflecting on the implications this
> > > > perspective
> > > > > > > > > elaborates.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of
> > > > > > > > > self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the
> Historical
> > > > roots
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
> > > > > > > > > <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi, everyone,
> > > > > > > > > > I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications
> on
> > > > > > > > > > self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am
> > > > > > interested in
> > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > references on this issue.
> > > > > > > > > >  Thanks in advance,
> > > > > > > > > >  Elina
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist
> one
> > > end
> > > > > of
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a
> violin
> > > > > string
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it
> in
> > my
> > > > > > violin
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a
> > > > violin
> > > > > > > > string.
> > > > > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end
> > of
> > > it
> > > > > and
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
> > string
> > > is
> > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> > > violin
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a
> violin
> > > > > string.
> > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
> it
> > > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string
> is
> > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> violin
> > > and
> > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> > > string.
> > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >         _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >         _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it and
> > it
> > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
> > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin and
> > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin string.
> > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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