Re: [xmca] As-is and As-if

[Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca>]

Andy, you wrote
 
"my as is may be your as-if. There are tricky questions there."
 
I absolutely believe these are tricky questions but fascinating. 
Now for a developmental speculation. From a Meadian framework can we ask "is it possible for Your as -is to be transformed into my as-is and also is it possible for my as-if to be transformed into your as-if??  And the next Meadian thought is if it is possible to hold BOTH THESE PERSPECTIVES SIMULTANEOUSLY  [my as-is and your as-if positions within MY I-ME dialectic] [and YOU hold your as-is and my as-if perspectives in YOUR I-ME dialectic]. These multiple (but not random as they are expressions of particular social acts) perspectives lead to the development of self-reflection as a person simultaneously reflects self-in-other AND other-in -self awareness. 
 
Final question, with development is a person capable of self-REFLECTION where the person is able to simultaneously recognize and FLEXIBLY PLAY with these various persons much like a person playing soccor can play alternatively "goalie position, "defense" position, or "forward" position and  simultaneously take (anticipate) the different positions within the same rule based game. In Mead's terms the generalized perspective of the other.
Andy, Moscovici's theory of social prepresentations elaborate how the specific positions elaborated in  particular social acts become institutionalized and generalized. In my example of soccor the player develops soccor perspectives through playing many games (Mead's generalized other as an institutionalized other but this generalized institutional other is built up over repeated experiences of playing soccor with specific others [other/s] )
 
Now to bring in the as-is and as-if tension into this Meadian construction.
 
As a forward the player can ANTICIPATE what the goalie MAY do because the forward's as-if awareness of the goalie position is one of the generalized positions he has learned in the social act of playing soccor. It is this dialectic of this "anticipation/belief/imaginal as-is structure/process" that I sense is the interPLAY between the as-IS and as-IF as a dynamic figure/ground process where  two sides of a single process are being interweaved
 
In summary,
I hope my stream of consciousness has some clarity or coherence in bringing the "as-is/as-if" antinomy into the conversation.  Andy I do believe this issue IS VERY TRICKY (and playful, and game-like) However, if there is some "/truth/coherence/" to this perspective on development then I can bring back Cooly's and Scheff's notions of the imaginal as-if as central to ALL presentations of self in social acts and Sceff's notion of shame as the process of monitoring this presentation of self.
 
Then the question becomes in the ZPD, (which are social acts), in which presentation of self is a component of the ZPD in self/other [teacher/learner] social interactions how best to create a ZPD where VULNERABILITY is addressed and the vitality of teaching/learning is scaffolded.
 
The term ANTICIPATION as a concept which expresses the as-is/as-if tension seems to run through most narratives of development.
 
What do others think?
 
Larry


----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010 11:27 pm
Subject: [xmca] As-is and As-if
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

> I think you have it as I intended Larry, in your own words.
> Indeed, there is tension between the two types of activity 
> with their appropriate ontological stances, and both merge 
> in their own way into everday life (fact vs. belief?). We 
> see examples of inappropriate forms of such tension in the 
> public discourse about anthropogenic climate change and in 
> creationism as an alternative to evolution. On the other 
> side, all manner of narrowmindedness and prejudice. *How 
> certain* a factual claim may be, is a different question. 
> Also troublesome are non-scientific as-is claims which play 
> a regulatory social role: my as-is may be your as-if. There 
> are tricky questions here!
> 
> Andy
> 
> Larry Purss wrote:
> > Andy
> > your post mentions that science is a particular type of rule 
> based practise that focues on the as-is realm and hermeneutics 
> is explicating the as-if realm. If this position is accepted it 
> still leaves the question of the tension BETWEEN these realms. 
> (I hope I'm reading your position as intended?)
> > Hermeneutic interpretation (as-if) and science (as-is as Andy 
> explains science) are related. As Andy recommends we have 
> various notions of how they are related.
> > Ingrid Josephs has a book she published in 2003 "Dialogicality 
> and Development" which I have not read, but her engaging with 
> the imaginary/reality tension and with the philosophy of as-IF 
> is a book I will read soon.
> > Larry
> 
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