Re: [xmca] Is the Ideal factual

[ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org]

Hello Andy:
I was referring to your comment that the holy trinity is taught as being
factual.  IHave always viewed the holy trinity as a faith-based system and
not "factual".  Part of Spinoza'a difficulty with church members was his
logicical use of spiritual matters.  Although not a christian and therefore
not involved in the matters of the holy trinity it is still a sticky wicket
when faith and fact cross paths.

So within this context I was looking for insight into the factual contents
of Ilyenkov's Ideal.

thank you,
eric

      To:	"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
      cc:
      bcc:
      Subject:    [xmca] Is the Ideal factual
Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
03/03/2010 10:10 AM ZE11
Please respond to ablunden          <font size=-1></font>




















Eric,
I am happy to respond, but could you contextualise your
question a little? Do you mean Ideals in general, or some
particular Ideal? I am curious, too.

Andy

ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
> I am curious Andy, do you believe the Ideal to be factual or is it based
> on faith?
>
> eric
>
>
>  *Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>*
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> 03/02/2010 06:17 AM
> Please respond to ablunden; Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture,
>      Activity"
>
>
>         To:        Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>
>         cc:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>         Subject:        Re: [xmca] new national curriculum in Australia
>
>
>
>
> I really don't know the answer to this, Rod. I am just
> exploring,  but in that spirit ...
>
> All teachers and probably all children like it best when the
> kids are just doing what they like doing, and of course they
> acquire competency and confidence if they learn like this.
> That's all nice and cosy. Ever since some time in the 1960s
> it has been near impossible to teach any other way (in many
> countries) in any case, because teachers can no longer
> exercise fearful authority or even respect ...
>
> But how does one grasp the Holy Trinity, or Saggitarian
> personalities, Iconic representation or Nonalgebraic
> equations, ... or any of these concepts which belong to
> systems of activity and concepts which are foreign to the
> day to day life of children?
>
> And if children just quietly accept the Holy Trinity without
> noticing that it is a concept based on Original Sin and the
> sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, which is not really
> factual ... is this a good thing?
>
> Is there anything to learn at school? Or can we all just
> absorb everything we need to know without really trying? Are
> we all natural born masters?
>
> I have in mind the material Chapter 5 of "Thinking and
> Speech." Vygotsky seems to think that learning concepts
> which are foreign to a child's day-to-day life is a
> completely different process from what happens when a child
> generalising from their own experience. It is only when the
> two processes meet that genuine understanding is possible.
> But if we shy away from teaching concepts, what is the result?
>
>
>
> Andy
>
> Rod Parker-Rees wrote:
>  > I would be opposed to JUST teaching the rules of mathematics or art
> (using the 'right' colours) AS rules before children have had a chance
> to do some groundwork on building up spontaneous concepts through
> immersion in a cultural environment in which people do the things that
> people do with maths and art.
>  >
>  > I think John Holt once argued that if we taught children to talk in
> the same way that we teach them to read we would have many more elective
> mutes and children with speech delays. I am not thinking so much about
> the later stages of education but I think it is pretty clear that in the
> early years children benefit more from adults who follow and expand on
> their attention than from those who try to switch their attention to
> desirable, high value learning (like teachers who have to turn every
> form of play towards counting, naming shapes and colours etc.). Children
> are taught from very early on to associate learning with WORK - with all
> the affective baggage that goes with that. I often hear students saying
> how wonderful it is when children are learning 'without even knowing
> that they are learning', partly because sneaking stuff in under the
> radar is seen as a way of bypassing the 'work = boring and difficult'
> associations which children are assumed to have developed.
>  >
>  > I do think there is a time and a place for teaching but I am not
> convinced that children always experience their teaching at appropriate
> times or in appropriate places!
>  >
>  > All the best,
>  >
>  > Rod
>  >
>  > ________________________________________
>  > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net]
>  > Sent: 02 March 2010 09:42
>  > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>  > Subject: Re: [xmca] new national curriculum in Australia
>  >
>  > So on that basis, Rod, you would also be opposed to the
>  > teaching of mathematics, and for that matter, art, unless
>  > the child was planning a career in a genuinely relevant
>  > profession, such as maths teacher or art teacher. :)
>  >
>  > Andy
>  >
>  > Rod Parker-Rees wrote:
>  >> I think there is a big affective difference between the way we learn
> first languages (or multiple mother, father and grandmother tongues) and
> the way we learn studied languages. I was taught French all through
> school but learned Italian by spending the best part of a year in Italy
> and i am conscious of differences in HOW I know each of these languages
> (and English). I have more of a feel for whether or not something sounds
> right in Italian but I know I know a lot more about the workings of
> French grammar.
>  >>
>  >> I wonder how useful it is to teach grammar, as a formal system of
> rules, to children who are still picking up on the 'feel' of their
> language. I still think that reading well written prose is probably the
> best way to develop this feel (picking up a set of 'intuitive' patterns
> about 'the done thing' or 'what people do, as a rule') but of course
> this helps to develop a 'gut feeling' about the grammar of WRITTEN
> language - we also need plenty of exposure to different styles of spoken
> language so that we can develop sensitivities to what works when and
> with whom (I never had much time for those primary schools which
> insisted that children must only be exposed to one, 'correct' way of
> forming letters - one font - for fear of confusing them!).
>  >>
>  >> The time for learning about conventional rules AS rules may be when
> we start to ask questions about why some people say it this way and some
> say it that way. We know from studies of language acquisition that a
> huge amount of time can be wasted on trying to condition children to
> follow a rule which they have not yet noticed.
>  >>
>  >> All the best,
>  >>
>  >> Rod
>  >>
>  >> ________________________________________
>  >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net]
>  >> Sent: 02 March 2010 02:21
>  >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>  >> Subject: [xmca] new national curriculum in Australia
>  >>
>  >> Our immensely incompetent Labor Government yesterday
>  >> announced their new national curriculum for schools
>  >> (formerly this was a state responsibility).
>  >>
>  >> It features the teaching of history from the very beginning,
>  >> including indigenous history (this is an unambiguous good)
>  >> and emphasises the 3 Rs, including grammar. No curriculum
>  >> has been set yet in Geography and other subjects.
>  >>
>  >>
>
http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/a-sound-beginning-20100301-pdlv.html
>  >>
>  >> Helen raised with me off-line this problem of reintroducing
>  >> the teaching of grammar: who is going to educate the
>  >> educators? Anyone under 55 today did not learn grammar at
>  >> school or until they did a foreign language, when they
>  >> learnt the grammar of the other language. (Grammar means
>  >> "Which icon do I click now?")
>  >>
>  >> What do xmca-ers think about teaching grammar? (I am in favour.)
>  >>
>  >> Also, many progressive educators here are opposed to
>  >> curricula in toto: education should be about learning not
>  >> content. Do xmca-ers agree?
>  >>
>  >> Given the disastrous implementation of policies by this
>  >> government over the past 2 years, I fear for our education
>  >> system. What do people think?
>  >>
>  >> Andy
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  >> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>  >> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>  >> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>  >>
>  >> _______________________________________________
>  >> xmca mailing list
>  >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>  >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>  >
>  > --
>  >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>  > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>  > Ilyenkov $20 ea
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > xmca mailing list
>  > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>  > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea

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