Re: [xmca] Re: literacy? and its meanings: future of LCHC

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:32 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> In 1984 when that narrative was written, almost all of the people of color
> had been driven out of UCSD
> and the USSR (a beattles record?) was an evil empire.
>
> And now?
>
> New times, new forms of action. Watching "Ghandi" (the movie :-)  ) with my
> grandson. Nonviolence does not seem to be a part of the tool kit these days.
> How does one do non-violence in the new social media?
> mike
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Steve
>> This seems to be a fascinating historical document that speaks to "lives
>> of commitment" in a complex world. Reading about the genesis of LCHC is part
>> of that non-causal way of locating one's self in historical process.
>> (looking back and then ideally looking to the future as a single process for
>> acting intentionally in the present.  I see this non-causal historical
>> process as a way of defining "agency" as always situated within cultural
>> contexts and this form of situated agency is a central vision and commitment
>> of the LCHC project.
>>
>> In the book "Common Fire" 100 people were interviewed and their narratives
>> were analyzed for possible common themes that could be discerned as models
>> for how to proceed.  There were 4 selection criteria which determined who
>> was included in the book. The criteria were:
>> 1) "Commitment to the common good".People who held a large and inclusive
>> vision and not simply idealists. Though working on behalf of particular
>> groups understood themselves to be working on behalf of the whole of life.
>> 2) "Perseverance and Resilience"  Most had been sustained more than 20
>> years of work on behalf of a humane world. They attempted to screen people
>> who were burning out. However people who had quit and then returned to the
>> work to find out what sustained them the second time.
>> 3)"Ethical Congruence between life and work:  Was there a certain
>> seamlessness between what they professed and what they lived both at home
>> and in the wider world.
>> 4)"Engagement with Diversity and Complexity."  The people chosen while
>> working within particular institutions sought to understand the larger
>> systemic implications of their work and had a critical perspective on their
>> own work. The authors believe the emerging demands of the 21st century call
>> for the ability to not only care for particular communities or causes but to
>> recognize how one's work is affected by the interdependent realities of the
>> "new commons"
>>
>> Using these four criteria I would situate LCHC as a particular example of
>> what these authors refer to as the new commons.   This world view has as one
>> of its foundational perspectives the research done at Harvard University
>> (where Sharon Parks worked) and names such as Carol Gilligan (In a Different
>> Voice) William Perry, and Robert Kegan supported each other.
>>
>> Steve
>> As I read the article you posted my perspective when reading will be to
>> look for patterns of emergence and the particular story of LCHC being part
>> of the larger story of the emergence of a "new commons"
>>
>> This post is written in the spirit of inviting new narratives and new
>> metaphors that may crystallize into new ways of empowering change for the
>> "whole of life"
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:20 pm
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: literacy?  and its meanings: future of LCHC
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>> > Larry, I found this 1984 report "LCHC: A Program of Research
>> > and
>> > Training in Cultural Psychology" very helpful for understanding
>> > the
>> > genesis of LCHC.
>> >
>> > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/APROGRAM.PDF
>> >
>> > - Steve
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Larry Purss wrote:
>> >
>> > > Mike
>> > > I also want to draw attention to the term "meso" as an
>> > intermediate
>> > > term between micro and macro.  I consider architecture to
>> > be a
>> > > particular and profound example of human artifacts which
>> > express
>> > > human ideality (Bruner's "Possible Worlds")  When you
>> > mention that
>> > > LCHC is on life support I wonder and reflect (I love the
>> > term
>> > > "reverie") on how LCHC has evolved for the last 40 years and
>> > that
>> > > architecture as shared space (or place) was foundational to
>> > its
>> > > existence..  Architecture is a crystallization of
>> > reverie,
>> > > artifacts, and social relations.  To understand the
>> > historical
>> > > impact of LCHC at the meso level is central to reflecting on
>> > next
>> > > steps.
>> >
>> > > I don't know the politics of how LCHC was created and was able
>> > to
>> > > continue throughout the following decades.  I also don't
>> > know the
>> > > current forces aligned against the vision of LCHC.
>> > However I
>> > > personally believe the narrative power of LCHC and the impact
>> > it has
>> > > had on pedagogy, psychology, communications, anthropology,
>> > cultural
>> > > studies and other literate discourses is profound and can
>> > be
>> > > articulated.  As an alternative narrative in the current
>> > cultural
>> > > wars it may be possible to project this vision into the mass
>> > media
>> > > and for LCHC to be recognized as a center of excellence as
>> > Obama
>> > > searches for new models.
>> > >
>> > > Looking to the future and ways to support the continuity of
>> > LCHC I
>> > > wonder if there is a continued need for reverie and
>> > considerations
>> > > of action not at the individual level but rather at the meso
>> > level
>> > > of architecture and location in space (place). I think about
>> > how
>> > > other people who have a shared vision construct places
>> > (ie
>> > > institutes) and then I think of how many people are promoting
>> > a
>> > > relational paradigm shift.   I do wonder if
>> > alternative narratives
>> > > can emerge from private reverie and be located in shared
>> > spaces
>> > > (places) at the meso level.  It is the level of
>> > intermediate
>> > > community (Robert Nisbet) where cultural leverage can be
>> > applied AND
>> > > SUSTAINED.
>> > >  LCHC is living proof of this, as is CHAT which is in
>> > virtual shared
>> > > space.  Ideality when shared and acted upon to create
>> > architecture
>> > > which is inhabited has the power to counter reactionary narratives.
>> > >
>> > > I get inspiration for this view of the possible worlds created
>> > from
>> > > narrative from a book called "Common Fire:  Leading Lives
>> > of
>> > > Commitment in a Complex World" by L. Daloz, C. Keen, J. Keen,
>> > and S.
>> > > Parks. (1996)  It is an anthology of the biographies
>> > of  inspired
>> > > people acting on their visions to try to create a "new
>> > Commons" in a
>> > > complex world.
>> > > Larry
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> > > Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 7:01 am
>> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Fwd: Visual literacy? Surf an art museum -
>> >
>> > > Lifestyle - SignOnSanDiego.com
>> > > To: "Duvall, Emily" <emily@uidaho.edu>
>> > > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > >
>> > >> Fuller references, Emily? It would be helpful.
>> > >>
>> > >> In general, in discussing this topic, I find it helpful to keep
>> > >> in mind
>> > >> three inter-twined conceptions of literacy in discussion of it
>> > >> that lead to
>> > >> confusion:
>> > >> 1. the quality or state of being literate, esp. the ability to
>> > >> read and
>> > >> write.  2. possession of education: to question someone's
>> > >> literacy.  3. a
>> > >> person's knowledge of a particular subject or field: to acquire
>> > >> computerliteracy.
>> > >>
>> > >> To me what is significant is the (perhaps necessary, see Larry's
>> > >> remarks)conflation of being able to mediate
>> > >> action/interpretation through a code
>> > >> like kanji and knowledge about some topic.
>> > >>
>> > >> Forgetting this issue leads to people speaking past each other
>> > >> with respect
>> > >> to, e.g. computer literacy.
>> > >> mike
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Duvall, Emily
>> > >> <emily@uidaho.edu> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> One of the more interesting experiences I have had is when I was
>> > >>> preparing to teach a course on Visual/ Critical Literacy:
>> > >> Using Picture
>> > >>> Books, Comics, Graphic Novels, Anime, and Film in the
>> > >> Classroom. I sat
>> > >>> down with vol 1 of Bone and began to read. I ignored the
>> > >> pictures and
>> > >>> read the text. Zipping along, I realized (a) I didn't know
>> > >> what was
>> > >>> going on, and (b) I was bored. I went back and spent time
>> > with the
>> > >>> entire text and am now thoroughly addicted. It really depends
>> > >> on the way
>> > >>> the pictures are used... in tandem, as conjoined text; as
>> > the front
>> > >>> runner (as in children's writing where the pictures are the
>> > >> important> aspect a story); or an add-in (as in children's later
>> > >> writing when
>> > >>> pictures illustrate, but don't really tell us much... they
>> > >> fill up time
>> > >>> in a classroom... "go back and illustrate"). Some texts,
>> > like The
>> > >>> Invention of Hugo Cabret, weave words and pictures and you
>> > >> need to read
>> > >>> them both.
>> > >>> I highly recommend Molly Bang's theoretical work (sorry if I am
>> > >>> repeating anything already said, I'm jumping in)to really
>> > dig deeply
>> > >>> into the pictures; her children's books are interesting as
>> > >> well. Anthony
>> > >>> Browne has some pretty amazing children's books...they are
>> > >> edgy and
>> > >>> post-modern at times.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Meanwhile I have a doc student who is working on financial
>> > >> literacy...> there are some fundamental elements of a literacy
>> > >> that ring across
>> > >>> domains it seems... like discourse, eh?
>> > >>> ~em
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>> > >> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]> On Behalf Of mike cole
>> > >>> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 5:05 PM
>> > >>> To: Jenna McWilliams
>> > >>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Fwd: Visual literacy? Surf an art museum
>> > -
>> > >> Lifestyle> - SignOnSanDiego.com
>> > >>>
>> > >>> No doubt, Jenna.  And forms like Youtube allow for users
>> > >> to be producers
>> > >>> in
>> > >>> a big way. But I see no need to knock museums and
>> > >>> the pleasures of "reading" paintings that have endured over a
>> > >> long time!
>> > >>> (The cost can be pretty steep these days though).
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The "learning to see" theme runs through a lot of CHAT-related
>> > >> work, and
>> > >>> seems an endless source of insights.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> One way I find that i can learn a lot about paintings is by doing
>> > >>> jig-saw
>> > >>> puzzles. Jackson Pollock seemed a total fraud to me until i
>> > >> had, with
>> > >>> lots
>> > >>> of friendly gossipy help, done a quite complex puzzle of one
>> > >> of his big
>> > >>> canvases. Now jig-saw puzzles require their own
>> > >>> form of visual literacy, but what was amazing (a Klimpt also
>> > >> provided a
>> > >>> similar experience) was that I actually began to see nuances
>> > >> in the
>> > >>> paintings that i had simply never seen before. And once
>> > seen, the
>> > >>> ability to
>> > >>> see more deeply, at least for the given painting (after all
>> > >>> generalization
>> > >>> of the skill is a huge undertaking!)
>> > >>> it sticks with you along with the belief of the possibility
>> > >> that, say,
>> > >>> a Russian 18th century icon may contain the potential for visual
>> > >>> experiences
>> > >>> that my naive eye, loving the combination of colors and
>> > >> shapes, could
>> > >>> not
>> > >>> see.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I hear what you are saying that I am seeing.
>> > >>> :-)
>> > >>> mike
>> > >>>
>> > >>> PS. Have you met Etienne Pelaprat, a great grad student here at
>> > >>> UCSD, formerly in cogsci but completing degree in Comm, who
>> > >> has moved to
>> > >>> your fair city? If not, you should. He is rumored to be the
>> > sometime>>> savior
>> > >>> of xmca through his technical skills.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Jenna McWilliams
>> > >>> <jenmcwil@umail.iu.edu>wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Mike, you write:
>> > >>>> "I managed a D+ in my one obligatory art producing class in
>> > >> college (a
>> > >>> work
>> > >>>> later exhibited, by some really odd
>> > >>>> error, in a show of student art which makes one wonder at the
>> > >>> judgments
>> > >>>> involved on either side of the
>> > >>>> process!). I am a hopeless plastic arts producer. But not
>> > entirely>>>> illiterate as a reader, finder of meanings."
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> It's fair enough to argue that reading and writing are not
>> > >> equivalent> forms
>> > >>>> of literacy. But in this crazy multimodal culture of ours, where
>> > >>> reading and
>> > >>>> writing both require adeptness with design proficiencies
>> > (remember>>> that even
>> > >>>> the text we read on the screen is a digital product--the
>> > >> 'translation'> of
>> > >>>> code into a specifically designed visual format that we can
>> > >>> interpret), what
>> > >>>> we call "visual literacy" is increasingly an essential
>> > >> component of
>> > >>> BOTH
>> > >>>> reading and writing. Visual literacy goes far beyond what we
>> > >> learned> in art
>> > >>>> class--the color wheel and all that.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> In fact, it seems a little strange to link visual literacy to
>> > >>> museumgoing.
>> > >>>> I bombed art class right along with the best of them, and
>> > >> success in
>> > >>> art
>> > >>>> class still wouldn't have prepared me to engage in the
>> > sorts of
>> > >>>> communications platforms that have become the most
>> > >> significant message
>> > >>>> delivery systems. Indeed, design and visual literacy (or
>> > >> whatever you
>> > >>> want
>> > >>>> to call them) skills are so embedded in communication
>> > >> platforms that I
>> > >>> find
>> > >>>> myself making design decisions without a thought (as when I
>> > >>> re-formatted the
>> > >>>> chunk I quoted from the previous email in this thread,
>> > >> because when I
>> > >>> pasted
>> > >>>> it in the line breaks got all funky--distracting for the
>> > >> reader!). I
>> > >>> don't
>> > >>>> know if the fact that visual literacy (or whatever you want
>> > >> to call
>> > >>> it) is
>> > >>>> embedded within reading and writing literacy practices
>> > >> strengthens or
>> > >>> weaken
>> > >>>> the case for calling it a form of literacy; I only know that
>> > >> it's both
>> > >>>> important and different enough from reading and writing
>> > >> skills to
>> > >>> deserve
>> > >>>> its own label, if only so we know how to talk about it.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> visually,
>> > >>>> jenna
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> ~~
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Jenna McWilliams
>> > >>>> Learning Sciences Program, Indiana University
>> > >>>> ~
>> > >>>> http://jennamcwilliams.blogspot.com
>> > >>>> http://remediatingassessment.blogspot.com
>> > >>>> ~
>> > >>>> jenmcwil@indiana.edu
>> > >>>> jennamcjenna@gmail.com
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:06 PM, mike cole wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The addition of production to definitions of literacy
>> > >> is always a
>> > >>> good
>> > >>>>> move
>> > >>>>> in my view, Jay. Reading is not equivalent to writing. In
>> > >> the case of
>> > >>>>> visual
>> > >>>>> literacy and museum art, it seems like what is being
>> > >> referred to is
>> > >>> the
>> > >>>>> reading half. At least i hope so. I managed a D+ in my one
>> > >> obligatory> art
>> > >>>>> producing class in college (a work later exhibited, by some
>> > >> really> odd
>> > >>>>> error, in a show of student art which makes one wonder at the
>> > >>> judgments
>> > >>>>> involved on either side of the
>> > >>>>> process!). I am a hopeless plastic arts producer. But not
>> > >> entirely> >> illiterate as a reader, finder of meanings.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> There is, a few blocks from you apartment, a show at the SD
>> > >> Museum of
>> > >>>>> Contemporary Art by Tera Donavan. I think you will find it as
>> > >>> fascinating
>> > >>>>> as
>> > >>>>> I did. I plan to take the family during their visit.
>> > >> Donovan take
>> > >>> everyday
>> > >>>>> objects (tar paper, straws, cups, and more) and creates
>> > >> installations> with
>> > >>>>> thousand of only one object aggregated in the most
>> > >> fantastic ways.
>> > >>> She
>> > >>>>> states her goal as wanting to explore the properties of
>> > >> objects seens
>> > >>> as
>> > >>>>> parts of very large populations rather than as individual
>> > >> objects.> The
>> > >>>>> effects she achieves are mind boggling with the play of
>> > >> light and
>> > >>> texture
>> > >>>>> over surface sufficient to reorder our perceptions in ways
>> > >> we could
>> > >>> never
>> > >>>>> anticipate.Again, art as tertiary artifact, re-admired.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Since you have written more on time scales, I'll stay away
>> > >> from the
>> > >>> topic
>> > >>>>> in
>> > >>>>> general; we have agreed too often here to warrant repitition.
>> > >>>>> But quite specifically, our work in creating the "Fifth
>> > >> Dimension"> was to
>> > >>>>> be
>> > >>>>> able to study changes in a pre-pared system of activity
>> > >> over a long
>> > >>> time
>> > >>>>> period (from inception to death) at several scales of time.
>> > >> The idea
>> > >>> was
>> > >>>>> part of our interest in the failure of "successful" educational
>> > >>>>> innovations
>> > >>>>> to be sustained-- how did they die and why and how did their
>> > >>> implementers
>> > >>>>> enter in to and respond to the process. Still wrestling with
>> > >>> analysis--
>> > >>>>> lots
>> > >>>>> of 5thD's were born and died but others keep being born.
>> > >> Some are,
>> > >>> today,
>> > >>>>> strikingly like their originals in the 1980's, others have
>> > >> morphed so
>> > >>> that
>> > >>>>> only a few features remain. The children participants, who
>> > >> are almost
>> > >>>>> impossible to track over time are now adults -- i sometime
>> > >> encounter> one
>> > >>>>> at
>> > >>>>> ucsd. The college participants are parents I sometimes hear
>> > >> from. All
>> > >>>>> recorded in their fieldnotes written at the time. I have
>> > >> some money
>> > >>> salted
>> > >>>>> away so that "when it dies" (or if i can manage to retire before
>> > >>> doing so
>> > >>>>> myself) I will have the full range of instances documented
>> > >> and a lot
>> > >>> of
>> > >>>>> the
>> > >>>>> data in digital form,
>> > >>>>> so that I can look at that object from both ends of its
>> > >> history. A
>> > >>>>> preliminary report is in the book, *The Fifth Dimension*.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> As to LCHC, that is another matter. It seems to me a
>> > >> certainty that
>> > >>> it
>> > >>>>> will
>> > >>>>> die. It had a near-death experience a couple of years ago.
>> > >> As a way
>> > >>> of at
>> > >>>>> least marking its passing, a number of former and current
>> > >> members of
>> > >>> the
>> > >>>>> lab
>> > >>>>> are in the process of creating a book that traces its
>> > >> origins and the
>> > >>> many
>> > >>>>> offspring it has generated. THAT collective narrative I
>> > >> hope to live
>> > >>> long
>> > >>>>> enough to see come into being.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Now if Yuan or anyone would like to see LCHC live,
>> > >> proposals for how
>> > >>> to
>> > >>>>> arrange that would of course be seriously entertained, and
>> > >> perhaps> maybe
>> > >>>>> even entertaining! I thought I saw a nibble at
>> > >> collaboration on
>> > >>> making
>> > >>>>> XMCA
>> > >>>>> a more powerful medium the other day, but it turned out to
>> > >> be a
>> > >>> mirage.
>> > >>>>> So
>> > >>>>> for now, we keep on keeping on.
>> > >>>>> mike
>> > >>>>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Jay Lemke
>> > >> <jaylemke@umich.edu>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Thanks for the link, Mike. Was nice to see someone in the mass
>> > >>> media,
>> > >>>>>> affiliated with a newspaper no less, arguing for critical
>> > visual>>> literacy
>> > >>>>>> to
>> > >>>>>> protect us from advertising!
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Of course that is an old idea in visual education circles,
>> > >> and it
>> > >>> can
>> > >>>>>> build
>> > >>>>>> on the widespread folk-skepticism toward advertising.
>> > >> Unfortunately> the
>> > >>>>>> more
>> > >>>>>> pernicious effects in ads are probably at subtler levels
>> > >> than what
>> > >>> basic
>> > >>>>>> visual literacy skills can foreground.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> "The ability to find meaning in images" is the definition
>> > >> of visual
>> > >>>>>> literacy used. That seems a little too basic. I think
>> > >> everyone finds
>> > >>>>>> meaning
>> > >>>>>> in images, with or without any literacy education. Maybe
>> > >> there is an
>> > >>>>>> implied
>> > >>>>>> emphasis on FIND, in the sense of digging below the
>> > >> surface/obvious,> >>> which
>> > >>>>>> would be better. But more recent ideas in the field put more
>> > >>> emphasis on
>> > >>>>>> visual production relative to interpretation, so I'd
>> > >> probably go
>> > >>> with a
>> > >>>>>> definition more like "the skills of making meaning with visual
>> > >>> resources,
>> > >>>>>> for your own purposes", and include in that the meaning-
>> > >> making we do
>> > >>> with
>> > >>>>>> others' images by way of interpretation, critique, etc.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Have you ever noticed that when anyone, docent, tourguide,
>> > >> or just
>> > >>> me,
>> > >>>>>> speaks authoritatively about a painting in a museum, that many
>> > >>> bystanders
>> > >>>>>> seem to become interested in listening? People generally
>> > >> seem to
>> > >>> believe
>> > >>>>>> that art images, at least, require some professional
>> > >> interpretation> or
>> > >>>>>> benefit from having specialist knowledge (esp.
>> > >> historical). People
>> > >>> also
>> > >>>>>> seem
>> > >>>>>> to enjoy visual interpretation more than textual. Textual
>> > >>> interpretation
>> > >>>>>> is
>> > >>>>>> seen as superfluous, even obstructing to enjoyment of the
>> > >> work. No
>> > >>> one
>> > >>>>>> really reads literary criticism, or book reviews beyond
>> > >> the "it's
>> > >>> good"
>> > >>>>>> part. But people are fascinated by the exegesis of visual
>> > >> works. The
>> > >>> is
>> > >>>>>> one
>> > >>>>>> basis for the popularity of the DaVinci Code and similar
>> > popular>>> works.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> And there is not a word about visual interpretation skills
>> > >> in our
>> > >>>>>> standard
>> > >>>>>> curricula (meaning as practiced in schools, there are some
>> > >> nods in
>> > >>> the
>> > >>>>>> official standards).
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> JAY.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Jay Lemke
>> > >>>>>> Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
>> > >>>>>> Educational Studies
>> > >>>>>> University of Michigan
>> > >>>>>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
>> > >>>>>> www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
>> > >> <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
>> > >>> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
>> > >>>>>> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Visiting Scholar
>> > >>>>>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
>> > >>>>>> University of California -- San Diego
>> > >>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>> > >>>>>> USA 92093
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> xmca mailing list
>> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >>>
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