RE: [xmca] Emotions: Vygotsky and Gestalt

[Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>]

Vygotsky's criticism on Gestalt (by the way, I think there is a big difference to Gestalt theories that he discusses, and the kind of 'Californian' Gestalt informed by Pearls and Rogers, I learned in school... which by the way I still find personally very useful and it still gives richness to my practices... am I stepping back?). Again, I was starting saying that Vygotsky criticises Gestalt. Gestalt psychology in those terms "originally arose in the concrete psychological investigation of the processes of form perception" (The Crisis, p. 245). In Volume 3 of The Collected Works, and talking about The Crisis, he is trying to find a third way, that is not gross materialistic or idealistc psychology, which in turn had contributed to the creation of two psychologies (as Cole summarised in his 1996 Cultural Psychology). Vygotsy then (pp. 311 onwards) points to three perspectives that have aimed to find such a synthesis: Gestal pscyhology, personalism and Marxist psychology (2nd parragraph). An important note here is that when he talks about 'Marxist psychology' he is of course not refering to his brilliant constructions, but to those that I would call pre-Vygtoskian attemps that, as can be read in the same text, failed in the construction of such a psychology. Maybe someone that knows that psychology can give us more insights of what Vygotsky is dealing with (I could also summarise what he thinks about them :). I will not go into that. I will concentrate in Gestalt here.

 

He says then:

"All three schools share the conviction that psychology as a science is neither possible on the baiss of empirical psychology, not on the basis of behaviorism and that there is a third way which stands above these two ways and which allows us to realize a scientific psychology which does not reject either of the two approahces but unites them into a single whole. Each system solves this task in its own way and each has its own fate, but together they exhaust all (he underlines this word) logical possibilities of a third way, as if it were a methodological experiment especially designed for this purpose". -I love how V. writes!-

 

He announces here that he is going to discuss the three of them. And he says:

 

"Gestalt theory solves this problem by introducing the basic concept of structure (Gestalt), which combines both the functional and the descriptive side of behavior, i.e. it is a psychophysical concept." Structure is common to both physical and psychological realities. He adds: "the Gestalt principle is equally applicable to the whole of nature (underlined words by V. - I have to write this underlines cause I have observed that they do not appear after being processed by the sever)... The formula of the whole Gestalt theory can be reduced to the following: what takes place in a part of some whole is determined by the internal structural laws of this whole... Methodologically (underlined in the original) this is a striking fact and for Gestalt thoery it is a decisive argument" (p.311). This sounds quite reasonable and possibly we could think that V. could embrace this approach. "The two sides (he continues) are structurally similar. Consciouness brings nothing fundamentally new which would require other investigative methods." (p. 311-312). He wonders then, where the boundary is between materialism and idealsm. He concludes then that Gestalt in fact constructs a materialistic psychology which is at the end of the day in contradiction with their doctrine of phenomenal reactions, or instrospection, cause this reduces to behaviour. As I read this, then he is aiming to demonstrate that Gestalt psychology does not overcome the tendency of having the two psychologies, because Gestalt is actually choosing one of the two ways, thus Gestalt is not a third one. At the end of The Crisis, he explains how the recourse to apply psychology is what can open up the possibilities of a third way.

 

There are many other places where he criticises Gestalt, I can point tosome of them in the whole volumes of the collected works. I think V. es quite clever, as he is not saying that Gestalt psychology do everything wrong or anything like that. On the contrary, he recogises its advances and he always starts by acknowledging what other intellectual path have contributed to a particular discussion.

 

On the other hand, Humanist-Gestalt approach that I studied to become a psychotherapist, is based on an particular understanding of human-nature (the esence of human) as oriented to growing and expansion. I consider this as an important political aim, more than a 'given', so finally, this is why I do not feel incompatible working in my practice as a psychotherapist with this approach. This would really require possibly articles and would be worth another phd thesis :o ... 


Mabel

 

p.s. Apologies for my typos... appart from those that I do, my keyboard is passing away...





 

 


 

> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Emotions and culture
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 08:02:32 +0000
> 
> 
> Hi, excuse-me,
> 
> It's only to share a little information. Some time
> ago, Anton provide us a copy from the text from
> Vygotsky, Samukhin an Birembaum about Pick's 
> Disease - and it had important influences from
> Lewin and others. That two Vygotsky's collaborators
> studied in Germany, I guess, as did Zeiganik. There
> are something about the problem of that they
> call the "affective systems" of two patients...
> It is from 1934, and was not translated yet.
> 
> Thank you, nothing to detour the discussion, only
> an information about Vygotsky and Gestalt in
> clinical settings...
> 
> Best.
> Achilles.
> 
> > From: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Emotions and culture
> > Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 07:16:28 +0000
> > 
> > 
> > Hi, Larry.
> > 
> > Just for the records, I am really not interested in relational gestalt theory neither psychoanalisis. I will not change that in my thesis, much less at this stage. I define myself as a Gestalt psychotherapist, because I have a paper that says so, and it is the way in which I make (or theoreticallycan make) a living. I use art (but I do not have a paper that says that I am an art-therapist or an artist :).
> > 
> > Theoretically speaking, and that is how I understand what happens in my practice, and in all the other practices of which I participate, what I know a bit is Vygotsky. Just cause, I do not like those other labels, sorry.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Mabel
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 22:07:07 -0800
> > > From: lpurss@shaw.ca
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Emotions and culture
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > 
> > > Hi Jay
> > > Yes, your summary of emotions at different time scales seems to be in "sympathy" with my perspective. I've welcomed the opportunity from the CHAT community to find out what I "think" and "feel". 
> > > Mabel
> > > Your interst in relational psychoanlysis and Gestalt theory is shared by others.
> > > I googled "relational gestalt theory" and found many references to Gestalt theorists who are bringing relational theory into their practice. 
> > > 
> > > A general question for the CHAT community on the contrasts between "genetic" and "stage" theories of development. If genetic implies emergence and greater complexity whereas stages imply transcendence from one epistemology to a radically "other" stage why is Piaget's "genetic epistemology" theory describe various stages?
> > > This contrast in perspectives seems to have profound implications to how we view development.
> > > 
> > > Larry
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jay Lemke <jaylemke@umich.edu>
> > > Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 8:31 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Emotions and culture
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Mabel and Larry focus on what I think is a key issue in 
> > > > understanding 
> > > > emotion. First, that emotions are generated in time, as a 
> > > > process. It 
> > > > is a process in which we ourselves are ACTIVE, and not, as in 
> > > > some 
> > > > folk theories taken over into psychological models, merely 
> > > > reacting to 
> > > > external events and conditions. Second, its genesis takes place 
> > > > over 
> > > > multiple timescales. There is the very short term, moment-to-
> > > > moment, 
> > > > rise and fall of various feelings, their layering onto one 
> > > > another, 
> > > > the transitions from one to another. Then there is a longer-
> > > > term 
> > > > tendency, closer to the mood of the "moment" (which is a much 
> > > > longer 
> > > > moment than the first timescale), which may define a trend in 
> > > > the 
> > > > progression of our feelings. And this in turn is coupled more 
> > > > into the 
> > > > situation and setting, who else is there, what is going on, what 
> > > > is 
> > > > the activity and the goals that we are engaged with. Then 
> > > > further, 
> > > > there are still longer term scales, over months or years of our 
> > > > lives, 
> > > > which merge more into social processes and the expectations of 
> > > > the 
> > > > culture and subcultures, the communities we operate within.
> > > > 
> > > > I very much like the idea of ethnographic neuroscience, and I 
> > > > wish 
> > > > there were more neuroscientists who did! but they are not 
> > > > trained in 
> > > > this way, and it requires a collaboration at least. It is so 
> > > > much 
> > > > easier for them to study only short-term, isolated, laboratory- 
> > > > controlled events as they appear in their neuro-
> > > > physiological 
> > > > correlates, which makes sense if they imagine that they are 
> > > > looking at 
> > > > universal processes, which occur in the same way every time.
> > > > 
> > > > But of course they don't, and how they appear is very 
> > > > context 
> > > > dependent. At least we know this is the case in terms of how 
> > > > they feel 
> > > > to us, and how they emerge over the shorter and longer 
> > > > timescales of 
> > > > relevance. It would be very interesting to know what is the same 
> > > > and 
> > > > what is different across cases and events, in different 
> > > > situations and 
> > > > settings, for "the same" emotional response. This will, I think, 
> > > > be on 
> > > > the agenda of the neuroscience of a decade or two from now.
> > > > 
> > > > JAY.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Jay Lemke
> > > > Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> > > > Educational Studies
> > > > University of Michigan
> > > > Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> > > > www.umich.edu/~jaylemke
> > > > 
> > > > Visiting Scholar
> > > > Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
> > > > University of California -- San Diego
> > > > La Jolla, CA
> > > > USA 92093
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, Larry and all.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you very much Larry, for having introduced Stern. I am 
> > > > not 
> > > > > into psychoanalysis. I am a Gestalt psychotherapist, and 
> > > > maybe 
> > > > > because this perspective emphasizes the 'here and now', I 
> > > > realised 
> > > > > that I had to discuss the present moment, and the 
> > > > performative 
> > > > > making sense of the situation when I faced the challenge to 
> > > > analyse 
> > > > > my videos about classroom interaction. Also, I discuss 
> > > > the 
> > > > > difference of actions that seem intentionally loaded, with 
> > > > others in 
> > > > > which intentionality is quite contestable. My research is 
> > > > based in 
> > > > > microanalysis. For being able to study emotions, I decided to 
> > > > study 
> > > > > Vygotsy's understanding of emotions. Also I found in this 
> > > > analysis 
> > > > > of video (I did not interview neither the teachers or the 
> > > > students 
> > > > > about their emotional experience, although I did had 
> > > > long 
> > > > > conversations with the teachers), that in order to 
> > > > understand 
> > > > > videos, there was important to find 'whole' situations in 
> > > > which 
> > > > > emotions were first of all 'evident'. The segments then were 
> > > > from 
> > > > > about 1 to 4 minutes long, and I then describe them in 
> > > > depth, 
> > > > > including drawings of the interactions. I study this excerpts 
> > > > as 
> > > > > developmental in terms of emotions. I already said that the 
> > > > metaphor 
> > > > > I use is that I study certain threads without taking them away 
> > > > from 
> > > > > the tissue. In my descriptions, I present the richness of the 
> > > > tissue 
> > > > > and I relay in the concept of context that weave together 
> > > > (Cole, 
> > > > > 1996). I discuss how emotions emerge and impact the situation, 
> > > > and 
> > > > > how this impact 'informes' in turn the sense that individuals 
> > > > keep 
> > > > > making of the situation instant after instant.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > My conclusions are more about the way in which emotions can 
> > > > be 
> > > > > studied, and I pose questions to neuroscience, as I see Stern 
> > > > does! 
> > > > > I suggest to do 'ethnographic nueroscience'. Stern (2004) says:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > " Two kinds of data are needed. First, accurate timing of 
> > > > brain 
> > > > > activity correlated with phenomenal experiences. Second, the 
> > > > timing 
> > > > > of th analogic shifts in intensity or magnitude of neural 
> > > > firing 
> > > > > during the same phenomenal expereinces".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to read more about Stern, I would like to understand 
> > > > what are 
> > > > > the similarities and differences with Vygotsky's thought, and 
> > > > the 
> > > > > usefulness of Stern's contribution. So far, so good :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mabel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:45:44 -0800
> > > > >> From: lpurss@shaw.ca
> > > > >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >> Subject: [xmca] Emotions and culture
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi everyone
> > > > >> I wanted to look at another level of the discourse on 
> > > > emotions. 
> > > > >> This is to add to the recognition of the other levels such 
> > > > as 
> > > > >> institutionally and historically contexts of emotion. This in 
> > > > no 
> > > > >> way minimizes the critical importance of these levels of 
> > > > process 
> > > > >> for understanding emotion.
> > > > >> But, in the same spirit of discourse analysis which loos at 
> > > > the 
> > > > >> micro level of conversation I believe we expand our horizon 
> > > > of 
> > > > >> understanding by exploring the microgenesis of emotions as 
> > > > the 
> > > > >> interface between biology and culture. I have posted before 
> > > > on the 
> > > > >> position of Daniel Stern and the moment by moment generation 
> > > > of 
> > > > >> emotion. Today I want to summarize the thoughts of a DONNEL 
> > > > B. 
> > > > >> Stern to this discussion in his book "Unformulated Experience"
> > > > >>
> > > > >> (p.43)When we talk about content or structure or experience 
> > > > it is 
> > > > >> not a THING at all, but a PROCESS, one that has CONTINUITY 
> > > > OVER 
> > > > >> TIME. Some processes have more continuity (organization) some 
> > > > less. 
> > > > >> We act AS IF these discrete abstractions which our folk 
> > > > psychologhy 
> > > > >> labels thoughts, memories, feelings, are REAL but they are 
> > > > socially 
> > > > >> mediated constructions that locates experience in PARTICULAR 
> > > > stable 
> > > > >> ways. Psychoanalysis is interested in how these processes 
> > > > keep 
> > > > >> reproducing experience in similar shapes or patterns 
> > > > through 
> > > > >> interpretive organizing ACTIVITY.
> > > > >> Stern discusses a psychoanalyst "ROY SCHAFER" who attempts 
> > > > to 
> > > > >> translate all psychological events and language games into 
> > > > ACTION 
> > > > >> LANGUAGE to recognize these psychological events as 
> > > > ACTIVITY. 
> > > > >> Schafer chooses not to take this approach because 
> > > > communication 
> > > > >> becomes awkward.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> However he does elaborate the processes of REFLECTIVE 
> > > > EXPERIENCE 
> > > > >> (where we stand back from and observe our 
> > > > phenomicological 
> > > > >> processes. Folk psychology (common sense) leaves the 
> > > > impression 
> > > > >> that thoughts and emotions just arrive or leap into 
> > > > existence 
> > > > >> without the DEVELOPMENT of the thought or emotion. In reality 
> > > > each 
> > > > >> moment of experience is a process of emergence (MICROGENESIS) 
> > > > a 
> > > > >> sequence of necessary steps that must occur as experience 
> > > > UNFOLDS. 
> > > > >> Microgenesis, applied to thought and emotion develops from 
> > > > moment 
> > > > >> to moment in a process Donnel Stern calls FORMULATIND 
> > > > THE 
> > > > >> UNFORMULATED. The microgenetic lens emphasizes the 
> > > > developmental 
> > > > >> life (Dewey's "arc") of each present moment OUT OF the 
> > > > experience 
> > > > >> of the recently formulated experience. Conscious, 
> > > > explicit, 
> > > > >> liquistically articulated experience (formulated)emerges 
> > > > from 
> > > > >> activity (verbal and nonverbal) that took place in the 
> > > > preceding 
> > > > >> (sociocultural) moments. This emergence of experience 
> > > > INCLUDING 
> > > > >> THAT PART THAT ARRIVES IN AWARENESS is ORGANIC and CULTURAL 
> > > > and is 
> > > > >> a continuous dynamic process. Sometimes AFTER THE FACT the 
> > > > way one 
> > > > >> moment developed from the PREVIOUS one COMES TO OUR ATTENTION 
> > > > but 
> > > > >> more often it does not.
> > > > >> Donnel Stern uses the terms thought and emotion as 
> > > > heuristic 
> > > > >> devices and stress that he sees these processes as a single 
> > > > process 
> > > > >> of COGNITION (which for him is emotional-thought or 
> > > > thoughtful- 
> > > > >> emotion) Cognition is formulated as a process of emergence 
> > > > within 
> > > > >> sociocultural activity.
> > > > >> William Blake's metaphor "seeing the world in a grain of 
> > > > sand" 
> > > > >> captures the spirit of this inquiry at the microgenetic 
> > > > level. If 
> > > > >> this is seen as the unit of analysis it posits 
> > > > identity, 
> > > > >> subjectivity, and self-ing as emergent in moment to 
> > > > moment 
> > > > >> enactments which become organized into cultural patterns.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I hope this captures the spirit of the relational frame 
> > > > emerging in 
> > > > >> psychoanalytic discourse. They also are elaborating how the 
> > > > micro, 
> > > > >> meso, and macro levels of process develop in particulat 
> > > > historical 
> > > > >> contexts.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
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