RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Oh, sure, this a problem, above all, a problem not only a postulate.
I don't know about Winnicott, but human objects have a meaning too,
this semiotic dimension of an object, by any process is converted from
social relations to the social structure of personality... Vygotsky 
emphasizes ideological process in human emotion constitutions, for 
instance the difference between cellos in the Mussulman culture and
in occidental culture... And even historical transformations in our way
to feel something... including love... This seems to be an interesting
approach, because seems to trace a kind of anthropological view to
the question. Not only our tools, actions and signs historically developed,
but our emotions too, in a systemic and inter-functional set. These 
are some ideas that pass through me reading this chapter. But most
part of time Vygotsky is criticizing Descartes, James/Lange, Freud,
Scheler/Lotze... and his own affirmative position is only announced.
Winnicott can be a good contribution, I don´t know, how important
is the culture and the history to Winniccot? These transitional objetcs
chances only in form retaining the unconscious contends? Or the un-
conscious contends can change ideologically, culturally and historically?
How constitutional can be history, culture and ideology in human feelings?
The sample of Alighieri is very interesting... How many social process 
are important in love, for instance... not immediated ones, has you say,
but mediated process... Its complex, Vygotsky refuses the "peripheral
hypothesis, than the central, properly human, neuro-functional formations
will take a decisive role em the entire process... I don´t now, I only
have a problem, not sufficiently organized of course. I had read about
"perezhivanie" and its metodologycal role as "dynamic unit"... and emotions
are close, even they are not the same. 

Thank you, Andy.
Best wishes.
Achilles.    

> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:09:03 +1100
> From: ablunden@mira.net
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> 
> Achilles, this is a fascinating problem, isn't it? It's 
> kinda way out of my area, but can I just offer a couple of 
> innane observations from my own remote point of view?
> 
> 1. We should think of the body as an artifact which as such 
> plays the same mediating role in consciousness as do other 
> artifacts. We have a thought, our stomach tenses up, we feel 
> that tension in the stomach.  Thus the emotional reaction in 
> our guts mediates our feeling about the thought. etc.
> 
> 2. Donald Winnicott's current of psychoanalysis for all its 
> faults brings Freud much closer to CHAT by his study of 
> (transitional) objects which act as mediating elements for 
> us, bearers of affect and association. Same kind of thing as 
> 1., but the artifact is external to the body, but has 
> pesonal meaning.
> 
> Andy
> 
> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > Some quotes, from Vygotsky
> > 
> > 
> > Little attention has been given to this aspect of the problem because the problem
> > of man did not at all arise before contemporary psychology. But from the very
> > beginning, even the authors of the theory and their critics understood that in the
> > visceral hypothesis, they were speaking in essence of the animal nature of human
> > emotions. We will cite Chabrier, who advanced this idea in the most complete form.
> > Chabrier says that with this problem, we penetrate into the heart of the problem
> > and touch on the major objection that rises against the peripheral theory. When
> > we are speaking about instincts, we have before us an absolutely and invariably
> > established mechanism, which is activated automatically as soon as an appropriate
> > stimulation appears. It is possible that this is true also with respect to the primitive
> > emotions of the child, but it cannot be the same with respect to the usual emotions
> > of adults. (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 206)
> > 
> > Chabrier completely justifiably refers to the fact that a feeling of hunger, usually
> > considered in the group of lower bodily feelings in civilized man, is already a
> > fine feeling from the point of view of the nomenclature of James, that the simple
> > need of food can acquire a religious sense when it leads to the appearance of a
> > symbolic rite of mystical communication between man and God. And conversely,
> > a religious feeling, usually considered as a purely spiritual emotion, in pious cannibals
> > bringing human sacrifices to the gods, can scarcely he referred to the group
> > of higher emotions. Consequently, there is no emotion that by nature would be
> > independent of the body and not connected with it. James' book, The VrJrieties of
> > Religious Experience, shows incontrovertibly the extent to which higher feelings are
> > closely connected with all the fibers of our body. (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 207)
> > 
> > 
> > Separating emotions from the development of a system of ideas and establishing
> > their dependence exclusively on organic structures, James inevitably comes
> > to the fatalistic conception of emotions which encompasses animals and man
> > equally. The serious differences that human emotions display depending on the
> > era, the degree of civilization, the difference between mystical adoration of a knight
> > for his lady and the noble gallantry of the seventeenth century, remain unexplained
> > from the point of view of this theory. Chabrier says, if we imagine the infinitely
> > rich nature of the poorest emotion, if we pay less attention to the imaginary psychology
> > of single-celled organisms than to the remarkable analysis of novelists and
> > writers, if we simply make use of valuable data supplied by observations of people
> > around us, we cannot but admit the complete failure of the peripheral theory. Actually,
> > it is impossible to admit that simple perception of a female silhouette automatically
> > evoked an endless series of organic reactions of which could be born love
> > such as the love of Dante for Beatrice if we do not previously assume the whole
> > ensemble of theological, political, esthetic, and scientific ideas that comprised the
> > consciousness of the genius, AJighieri. (Vygosky, 1999, p. 207)
> > 
> > 
> > I have atached before, to you see something, but perhaps with these direct quotes
> > you can tell me more about... Mainlly the question about historical, cultural ideological 
> > constitution of human emotions... If the development of this could not be looking for
> > in Past, any suggestions about clues in present and future are very welcome too.
> > 
> > Thank you very much.
> > Achilles
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> >> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:00:07 +0000
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh, incredible! Thank you very much. You are a "power plant",
> >> always working.
> >>
> >> Oh, "thick" have many meanings, I see. But, if it is about number 
> >> of pages, there are 157 pages.... according my Google sources...
> >>
> >> Then you see, please, what must I do to pay the order.
> >>
> >> Muito obrigado.
> >> Achilles.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:23 -0800
> >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> >>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> CC: VEER@fsw.leidenuniv.nl
> >>>
> >>> Achilles!!
> >>>
> >>> Voila!!   The book is in library at UC Berkeley. I have ordered it. Lets see
> >>> how thick it is.
> >>> :-)
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I cannot find a thing, Achilles.
> >>>> Lets see if we can elicit some help.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rene-- Do you know of this work? Is it of enduring signicance?
> >>>>
> >>>> mike
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> >>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi XMCA,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How are you? I wish fine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was studding the Vygotsky's "Teaching about emotions"
> >>>>> and at the chapter 18 (see atached) I find very interesting
> >>>>> mentions to Chabrier - (I guess Joseph François Chabrier that
> >>>>> wrote "Les émotions et les états organiques" in 1911). The
> >>>>> contributions from Chabrier are linked with Vygotsky's concerns
> >>>>> for criticize dualistic views about emotions, and to understand
> >>>>> actual relations between emotions and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - consciousness
> >>>>> - culture
> >>>>> - ideology
> >>>>> - history
> >>>>> - and personality
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I search a lot for Chabrier, but there was practically nothing.
> >>>>> Nothing in Amazon, nothing in Google books. And French Libraries
> >>>>> don't send to Brazil.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Somebody have any suggestion, please? Any useful kind of service
> >>>>> to legally obtain the book? Some kind of "East View" to French resources?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you very much.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Achilles
> >>>>> from Brazil.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
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