Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie

[ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org]

Such a fabulous topic and one that truly does to speak the kernal of CHAT, 
that being what  is contained within the cultural/social/teaching/learning 
environment that provides for further learning and development in the 
child to take place?

If one sticks with Vygotsky it appears clear to me that he is uniquely 
interested in what occurs in the formalized setting of schools.  Towards 
the end of his life he begins to address other settings but while 
formulating the ZPD it is evident this was Vygotsky's way of blending 
extreme evironmentalists with those who viewed Human development as an 
inate biological process.  I believe LSV was adament that a child's 
development should lead instruction and that instruction should include a 
zone that provided an opportunity for the student to develop "higher 
psychological functions."  Other than a definition of hpf being culturally 
mediated there isn't clear deliniation as to what a hpf should look like. 
L:SV also refers to these as "scientific concepts".  Previous discussion 
has focused on what a concept is but that appears to have stalled in the 
Derida abyss.  However, I believe that Paula has moved forward how to get 
a handle on measuring the development of concepts using the blocks 
experiment.  Others appear to disagree.

As I see it now there are three distinct questions that I believe have not 
been agreed upon:

 
        Was Vygotsky correct that development should lead instruction?
        Is there a difference between the development of 'scientific 
concepts' and 'everyday concepts'?
        What method can provide insight into when a child's development 
has proceeded to a point where it will benefit from instruction?


eric




mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
11/22/2009 09:08 PM
Please respond to lchcmike; Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, 
Activity"

 
        To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie


Agreement? It MUST be transitory!
But it feels nice when it happens.... until it starts to feel oppresive.

Would SOMEPLACE send us some rain please??
mike

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:

>
> Mike and Helen
> your comment that different ways of defining/interpreting provide 
glimpses
> of a theoretical field which provide the LENSES through which we 
interpret
> the processes of common interest is a central insight for articulating 
how
> we ought to proceed.  The centrality of the quality of emotional
> relationships in shared activities seems to be a key variable and this
> points to the constructs of "intersubjectivity" and "recognition" and
> "response-ability" as terms that speak to this relational perspective.
> Larry
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: Helen Grimmett <helen.grimmett@education.monash.edu.au>
> Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:00 pm
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie
> To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> > Absolutely agreed! But I think the type of communication that
> > goes on in
> > most schools (at least the ones I've been in) between teachers and
> > students is way different to the type of social communication being
> > advocated by the Golden Key schools. I think part of the problem
> > is that
> > obshchenie is probably ineffable as well as untranslatable!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Helen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:24 am
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > > obuchenie without obshchenie is a little difficult to imagine,
> > helen.> communication devoid of affect seems to offer a similar
> > set of
> > > problems.
> > > Again, in every case of "definition" we have (a largely
> > unexplicated,> because you can never say everything about
> > anything) a large,
> > > pre-supposed set of theoretical assumptions about the
> > processes being
> > > defined.
> > >
> > > What makes discussion of these cases always (potentially) useful
> > > is that different ways of defining/interpreting provide
> > glimpses of
> > > thetheoretical field which provides the lens through which we
> > and our
> > > interlocutors are interpreting/delimiting the processes of
> > > (potentially!)common interest.
> > >
> > > mike
> > > (PS-- My spelling and typing are no better in transliterated
> > > Russian than in
> > > English)  :-((
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Helen Grimmett <
> > > helen.grimmett@education.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A group from my university attended the Vygotsky/Golden Key Summer
> > > > School earlier in the year and returned home all talking
> > about the
> > > > importance of obshchenie (this is the spelling we have been
> > using
> > > -
> > > > funny that it is a cross between Mike and Katrina's). While
> > they
> > > said> that Elena Kravtsova translated it as 'social
> > communication'
> > > she also
> > > > made it clear that this was not really an adequate
> > translation for
> > > > capturing the true expansive meaning of the word.
> > > >
> > > > In reference to my earlier message, pasted below, I'm
> > wondering
> > > whether> it is actually 'obshchenie' that is the unique
> > property of
> > > 'obuchenie'> (teaching/learning)? - i.e. it is all about the
> > > special social/emotional
> > > > relationships between and among teachers and learners in the joint
> > > > activity of obuchenie that make the difference.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps some Russian speakers can help further?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Helen.
> > > >
> > > > Earlier message: Helen wrote....
> > > > I am currently attempting to use obuchenie as a central
> > > > concept in my PhD research, arguing that perhaps using a
> > 'new'
> > > word with
> > > > teachers makes it easier for them to think about teaching
> > and
> > > learning> in a new way (as a conjoint practice that both
> > teachers
> > > and learners
> > > > engage in together).
> > > >
> > > > I have argued that it is difficult to assign new
> > > conceptualisations to
> > > > existing terms we have traditionally conceptualised in
> > different
> > > ways> and that perhaps using teaching/learning still provides
> > an
> > > image of
> > > > simply bringing together the two contradictory practices of
> > > teaching and
> > > > learning (as understood in their old way) rather than
> > helping
> > > teachers> think about it in a new way as a dialectical unity
> > which
> > > has its own
> > > > unique properties (more than the sum of its parts).
> > > >
> > > > I then go on in my proposal for confirmation of candidature
> > paper to
> > > > spend nearly 6000 words trying to explain what the unique
> > > properties of
> > > > obuchenie are. In a nutshell I talk about the ZPD (although
> > > taking a
> > > > holistic approach to development recognising the importance
> > of the
> > > > affective dimension alongside the more typical cognitive
> > approach);> > intersubjectivity and perezhivanie; authentic
> > meaning and motives
> > > for> participating in the activity; and recognising that all
> > of
> > > this occurs
> > > > within a particular cultural-historical context that both
> > > determines and
> > > > is determined by the interactions of the participants.
> > > >
> > > > I would be interested to hear what others think are the
> > unique
> > > qualities> of obuchenie and why/whether translations as even
> > > teaching/learning or
> > > > teaching-learning may be inadequate for generating new
> > > understandings> amongst teachers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Katarina Rodina <katja@student.uv.uio.no>
> > > > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:30 am
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie
> > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >
> > > > > The problem with terminology is a tricky one. The
> > understanding of
> > > > > terminology in Russian Psychology as "communication", "social
> > > > > interaction"and "Obchenie" is far from being straightforward.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've tried to investigate the problem of
> > communication
> > > (obchenie) in
> > > > > Vygotsky's, Leontiev's and so-called neo-Vygotskian
> > research (see
> > > > > belowRodina (2006)) .
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem of communication as a social relation (rus.
> > obchenie,> > > German"Verkehr") is highlighted in the works of
> > A.N. Leontiev,
> > > > > Zaporozhets and
> > > > > M. Lisina, i.e. the concept of early ontogeny of communication
> > > > > (obchenie)as a communicative activity (not speech activity
> > as an
> > > > > object of study as
> > > > > in psycholinguistics). Lisina's theory of early emotional
> > > > > communication/obchenia as a Leading Acitivity has much in
> > > common with
> > > > > Trevarthen's concept of early inter-subjective
> > communication and
> > > > > socio-emotional development in early ontogeny. Bodrova & Leong
> > > > > (1996: 51)
> > > > > could also be mentioned as a contemporary variant of
> > Elkonin's and
> > > > > Lisina's psychological concept of early emotional
> > > > > communication/obcheniawith Tronick`s (1989) "interactional
> > > synchrony".> >
> > > > > Lisina's understanding of communication/obchenia as a
> > > psychological> > category was based on Vygotsky's cultural-
> > > historical theory of
> > > > > developmentof HMF and Leontiev's activity theory (see for
> > example> > > Lisina, M. (1985)
> > > > > Child-Adults-Peers: Patterns of Communication. Progress
> > > Publishers;> > Karpov,Y.(2005). The Neo-Vygotskian Approach to
> > > Child Development.
> > > > > Cambridge University Press; Bodrova, E. & Leong, B.(1996).
> > > Tools of
> > > > > theMind: The Vygotskian Approach to Early Childhood Education.
> > > > > Prentice-Hall,
> > > > > Inc., pp. 50-55; Rodina, K. (2006).The Neo-Vygotskian
> > Approach to
> > > > > EarlyCommunication: A Cultural-Historical and Activity based
> > > > > Concept of
> > > > > Ontogeny. Nordic Psychology,Vol.58, No.4, 331-354).
> > > > >
> > > > > Katarina
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, November 21, 2009 17:22, mike cole wrote:
> > > > > > " Since communication is the precise measure of the
> > > possibility of
> > > > > social
> > > > > > organization, of good understanding among men (sic), relations
> > > > > that are
> > > > > beyond its range are not truly social..
> > > > > > GH Cooley, 1894.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > for Cooley, like Pierce, "mind is made concrete in culture."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------
> > > > > > Cooley's first book: The theory of transportation. No
> > > accident that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Katarina A. Rodina
> > > > > Research Fellow (PhD)/Logoped,MNLL
> > > > > Department of Special Needs Education,
> > > > > University of Oslo, P.O.Box 1140 Blindern,
> > > > > NO-0318 Oslo, Norway
> > > > > Phone: +47 41 108 408/Fax:  +47 22 85 80 21
> > > > > E-mail: katarina.rodina@isp.uio.no
> > > > >
> > http://staffdirectory.uv.uio.no/singleview/v1/index.php?user=katja> > >
> http://katarinarodina.blogspot.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > Head of Russo-Norwegian Academic Relations,
> > > > > The Vygotsky Institute of Psychology/RSUH
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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