Re: [xmca] Seeking help with Vygtosky's translation

[Jonathan Tudge JRTUDGE <jrtudge@uncg.edu>]

Hi, Artin and David,

My knowledge of Russian never was that great, and now has rusted 
considerably, but I've compared the two versions that you mentioned 
initially, Artin, with the original Russian.  As you, David, showed 
clearly with the two translations that you supplied, the English version 
from the 1987 Plenum publication is far far closer to the original Russian 
than is the 1962 version.  In fact, I've always treated the 1962 text as 
an extended summary of the original, rather than as a translation per se, 
because it leaves out whole sections of the original and paraphrases other 
sections.  From what I remember, the 1986 expanded version, revised by 
Kozulin, is closer to the original than is the 1962 version, but is 
nowhere near as accurate as is the 1987 text.

Jon

PS...David, we must be showing our age if we both experienced that little 
bit of child torture! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jonathan Tudge
Professor
155 Stone

Mailing address:
248 Stone Building
Department of Human Development and Family Studies
PO Box 26170
The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
USA

phone (336) 256-0131
fax   (336) 334-5076

http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html





"Goncu, Artin" <goncu@uic.edu> 
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11/19/2009 12:05 AM
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Re: [xmca] Seeking help with Vygtosky's translation







David,

Thank you very much for your very helpful reply.  I do appreciate it.  All
the best, Artin


On Wed, November 18, 2009 4:42 pm, David Kellogg wrote:
> Greetings from Seoul, Professor Goncu, where your two books on play are
> often read and appreciated.
> Â 
> As Meccaci remarks (and van der Veer confirms), there is really no very
> good LITERAL translation of Thinking and Speech into English and there 
is
> never likely to be. Partly this is the fault of the overenthusiastic 
early
> translators but partly it is the fault of copyright laws which prevent 
the
> translation of this work from becoming, as would be really proper, an
> inter-individual and inter-generational enterprise.
> Â 
> Those who know other languages can rely on the excellent French
> translation by Seve or the BRILLIANT Italian translation by Meccaci
> himself. Here's what they have, retranslated into English by me:
> Â 
> Seve: It would be miraculous if the assimilation of a foreign language
> during the process of school learning was a replica, a reproduction of
> that of the mother tongue, which was carried out long ago and under
> completely different conditions. But these differences, however profound
> they may be, must not mask from us the fact that the two processes of
> assimilating the mother tongue and assimilating the foreign language 
have
> between them so many points in common that it appears that at bottom 
there
> is a single class of verbal development processes, to which the 
extremely
> original process of the development of written language also attaches
> itself, for this does not repeat any of the precedents but instead
> represents a new variation of a single unified process. What is more,
> these three processesâ??the assimilation of mother tongues and foreign
> tongues and the development of written languageâ??each exercise a 
complex
> action on the others, and this testifies
>  incontestably to their belonging to single and same class of genetic
> processes and to their internal unity. The assimilation of a foreign
> language is also, as we have said, an original process because it
> utilizes the whole of the semantic aspects of the mother tongue which 
are
> the result of a long development. The learning of the mother tongue is
> based therefore on the knowledge of the mother tongue. Less evident and
> less well known is the relationship of inverse dependence between these
> two processes: the foreign language exercises in reverse an influence
> upon the mother tongue of the child. Goethe understood this very well, 
he
> who said that one who does not know a foreign language does not really
> know his own. Research entirely confirms this idea of Goethe, because it
> shows that the mastery of a foreign language raises the mother tongue as
> well to a superior level in the sense that the child becomes aware of
> linguistic form, that he generalizes verbal
>  phenomena, that he utilizes more consciously and more volitionally the
> word as an instrument of thinking and as an expression of a concept. One
> can say that the assimilation of a foreign language raises the mother
> tongue to a superior level as much as the assimilation of algebra raises
> the level of arithmetic thinking to a superior level, because it permits
> the child to understand that all arithmetic operations are a particular
> case of algebraic operations, they give him a freer, more abstract, more
> generalized, and at the same time more profound insight into operations
> using concrete quantities. Just as algebra frees the thinking of the
> child from the hold which concrete numbers had upon it, in the same way,
> but by other paths, the assimilation of a foreign language frees his
> verbal thinking from the hold of forms and concrete linguistic 
phenomena.
> Â 
> Meccaci:Â It would be a miracle if the development of a foreign language
> during the course of instructed learning in school repeated or 
reproduced
> the course, made much earlier and in other conditions, of the 
development
> of the mother tongue. These differences, although profound, should not
> hide from us the fact that these two processes of the developing mother
> tongue and the foreign one have between them very much in common and are
> at bottom members of a single class of processes of verbal development,
> and, in addition, they are accompanied by the extremely original process
> of development of written language which does not repeat the preceding
> processes but represents a new variation in this unique process of
> linguistic development. What is more, these three processesâ??the
> development of the mother tongue and the foreign tongue and the
> development of written languageâ??are found in an extremely complex
> interaction which shows incontestably that they
>  belong to a single class of genetic processes which has an internal
> unity. As we have seen above, the development of a foreign language is 
an
> original process, because it uses the whole of the semantic aspects of
> the mother tongue, which are born during a prolonged process of
> development. The learning in school of a foreign language is based in
> some way upon the knowledge of the mother tongue. Less evident and less
> well noted is the reverse dependence between these two processes, which
> consists of the inverse influence of the foreign language on the mother
> tongue of the child. Nevertheless Goethe understood this very well when
> he said that oen who does not know any foreign language does not truly
> know his own. Research has completely confirmed this idea of 
Goetheâ??s,
> showing that the mastery of a foreign language raises the mother tongue
> to a higher stage, in the sense that the awareness of the forms of
> language, of the generalizations of the phenomena
>  of language, of the more voluntary and more conscious use of words as
> instruments of thinking and as expressions of concepts. If we may say 
so,
> the assimilation of a foreign language raises the level of the maternal
> language (rech) for the child as much as the assimilation of algebra
> raises to a higher level the childâ??s arithmetic thinking, because it
> permits the child to understand any arithmetical operation as a
> particular case of algebraic operations, furnishing the child a freer,
> more abstract, more generalized and at the same time more profound and
> rich view of operations on concrete quantitites. Just as algebra frees
> the thinking of the child from its dependence on concrete numbers and
> raises it to a higher level of more generalized thinking, in the same 
way
> the assimilation of a foreign language in completely diverse ways frees
> verbal thinking from the grip of concrete forms and concrete phenomena 
of
> language.
> Â 
>
> There is another very relevant passage in Chapter 6, section 5:
> Â 
> Seve: But between these two opposed paths there exists a reciprocal
> interdependence, just like that between the development of scientific
> concepts and spontaneous concepts. The conscious and intentional
> assimilation of a foreign language is, to all the best evidence, based 
on
> a certain level of development of the mother tongue. When the child
> assimilates a foreign tongue, he already has at his disposal from the
> mother tongue a system of significations which he transfers into the 
other
> language. But inversely as well, the assimilation of a foreign language
> breaks the trail for the mastery of the higher forms of the maternal
> language. It permits the child to conceive his mother tongue as a
> particular case of the linguistic system, and, as a result, gives him 
the
> possibility of generalizing the phenomena that are proper to it, which
> signifies also seizing conscious awareness of his proper verbal 
operations
> and mastering them. Just as algebra is an
>  generalization and therefore a seizure of conscious awareness of
> arithmetic operations and their mastery, the development of a foreign
> language on the basis of the mother tongue signifies a generalization of
> linguistic phenomena and a seizure of conscious awareness of verbal
> operations, that is to say their translation onto the higher plane of a
> language which has become conscious and volitional. It is precisely in
> this sense that we must understand the aphorism of Goethe: â??He who
> knows no foreign language does not at bottom understand his own.â??
> Â 
> Meccaci: But between these two roads which proceed in opposite 
directions,
> there exists a reciprocal interdependence, much like that between the
> development of scientific concepts and that of spontaneous concepts. 
This
> conscious and voluntary assimilation of a foreign language bases itself
> very evidently upon a certain level of development of the mother tongue.
> The child assimilates a foreign tongue because he has at his disposal a
> system of knowledge of the mother tongue and can transfer this into the
> sphere of the other language. Conversely, the assimilation of the 
foreign
> language opens the road to the mastery of the superior forms of the 
mother
> tongue. It permits the child to conceive of the mother tongue as a
> particular case of a language system and gives the possibility of
> generalizing the phenomena of the mother tongue; this means the seizure 
of
> conscious awareness of its proper verbal operations and mastering them. 
In
> the same way, algebra is a
>  generalization and therefore a seizure of consciousness of arithmetical
> operations and allows their mastery, so too the development of a foreign
> language on the base of the mother tongue signifies the generalization 
of
> the linguistic phenomena and the seizure of consciousness of verbal
> operations, in other words their translation to a higher level of
> conscious and volitional language. This is the real sense in which we
> must understand the maxim of Goethe: He who does not know any foreign
> language, does not really know his own language at bottom.â??
> Â 
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Seoul National University of Education
>
>
>
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>


Artin Goncu, Ph.D
Professor,
Educational Psychology
College of Education M/C 147
1040 W. Harrison St.
Chicago, IL 60607
http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
(312) 996-5259

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