RE: [xmca] Response to Mike's question

[Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>]

Hi!
 
Yes, I find it very useful, Mike. Thank you, Larry.
 
I had already started reading the book and I will come back soon.
 
Mabel



> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:08:17 -0800
> Subject: Re: RE: [xmca] Response to Mike's question
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> Nice summary, thanks. I hope its of use to Mabel, i cetainly found it
> thought provoking,
> mike
> 
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:59 PM, lpurss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Mike
> >
> > My computer lost your thread so I went back to Mabel's thread.
> > I looked up Daniel Stern's section in his book on developmental evidence
> > for
> > intersubjective processes of "affect attunement", It starts on page 83. I
> > will write out in point form.
> >
> > Beginning at birth early forms of intersubjectivity are seen in infants.
> > This argues for the "fundamental" nature of the intersubjective matrix in
> > which we develop. It also speaks to the issue of innnateness.
> > Intersubjectivity in very young infants has been researched. For example
> > when mother and infant are in separate rooms but see each other on a
> > monitor
> > as if sitting face to face and a split second delay in the sight or the
> > sound is introduced the infant quickly notices and the interaction breaks
> > up. Their conclusion was that "correspondence" is already expected in
> > interhuman contact. Trevarthen calls this "primary intersubjectivity"
> > Stern and his collegues were interested in how the mother/infant dyad lets
> > each other known about their inner feeling states.If an infant emitts an
> > affective behavior AFTER the event how can the mother let the infant know
> > she grasped not only what the infant did but also the feeling the infant
> > experienced that lat behind what he did? The emphasis has shifted from the
> > overt behavior to the subjective feeling behind what he did? Stern labels
> > "affect attunement" (in contrast to imitation) the path to capturing the
> > way that the infant becomes sensitive to the behavior, timing, and affect
> > of
> > others.
> > Before 3 months infants are most interested in events that are perfectly
> > contingent with their behavior.. Between 4 to 6 months they become
> > fascinated with events that are highly but imperfectly contingent with
> > their
> > behavior.
> > Infants are born with minds that are especially attuned to other minds as
> > manifested in their behavior.. From birth onward one can speak of a
> > psychology of mutually sensitive minds. In short an early form of
> > intersubjectivity is present.
> > At 7 to 9 months infants become capable of more elaborate forms of
> > intersubjectivity well before the infant is verbal or symbolic. The
> > sharable
> > mental states start to include goal-directed intentions, focus of
> > attention,
> > and as before, the experience of action. At this this stage far more work
> > is
> > going on concerning the sharing of the focus of attention in order to
> > TRIANGULATE AN OBJECT, where the infant "passes through the other" to reach
> > the object. This is a cognitive aspect of intersubjectivity NECESSARY for
> > symbolization and language.
> >
> > Stern is more interested in the feeling/experiencing domain of
> > intersubjectivity. In this domain the reading of INTENTIONS are central to
> > the forms of intersubjectivity that appear very early in the infant. Some
> > pyschological element is needed to push, pull, activate or put events in
> > motion. Intentions, in one form or another, and in one state of
> > completeness
> > or another, are always there driving forward the action or story.
> > Stern sees the world in terms of intentions. You cannot function with
> > others without readinf or inferring their intentions. This reading or
> > attributing of intentions is our PRIMARY guide to responding and initiating
> > action. It is how we parse and interpret our surroundings. Recognizing and
> > deciphering intentionality is the starting point for adaptation and
> > survival. This perceiving/inferring of intentions in actions begins very
> > early in life. Braten calls this "altero-centered participation as the
> > ability to enter into the others experience and participate in it.
> >
> > At 12 months "social referencing is seen. A common example is when an
> > infant
> > learning to walk falls, she will look to her mother to "KNOW" what to feel.
> > If the mother expresses fear and concern, the infant will cry. If she
> > smiles, the baby will laugh. In other words in situations of UNCERTAINTY
> > or
> > AMBIVALENCE the affect state shown in others is referenced for the baby to
> > KNOW how to feel.
> >
> > After 18 months, when the child becomes verbal, new forms of
> > intersubjectivity are quickly added.
> > Stern challenges the general "theory of mind" perspective of representing
> > "other" minds as mainly a cognitive process.Stern's position is that the
> > fundamental base for intersubjectivity is about feeling, not cognition.
> >
> > In summary Stern's elaboration of the developmental evidence suggests that
> > beginning at birth the infant enters into an intersubjective matrix. As new
> > capacities are developed and new experiences become available, the infant
> > is
> > swept into the intersubjective matrix, which has its own ONTOGENESIS. The
> > breadth and complexity of this matrix expands rapidly, even during the
> > first
> > year of life when the infant is still presymbolic and preverbal. Then, in
> > the second year new experiences such as the "moral" emotions of shame,
> > guilt, and embarassment are drawn into the intersubjective mix. as
> > something
> > the infant can now experience within himself and others. At each phase of
> > the life course, the intersubjective matrix grows deeper and richer.
> >
> > Stern emphasizes what is at stake in psychological intimacy and
> > belongingness is regulated by the intersubjective matrix. This system
> > regulates psychological belongingness versus psychological aloneness. The
> > poles of this spectrum are, at one end cosmic lonliness, and at the other,
> > fusion and disappearance of the self. The intersubjective system regulates
> > the zone of intersubjective comfort somewhwere between the two poles. The
> > exact point on the continuum must be NEGOTIATED continually with
> > second-to-second fine-tuning. TOO MUCH IS AT STAKE for it not to be.
> > Stern believes intersubjective belongingness is different from physical,
> > sexual, attachment, or dependency ties. It is a form of group belonging
> > that
> > is either unique to humans or has taken a qualitative leap in our species.
> > One can argue that the leap is language, but without intersubjectivity,
> > language could not develop.
> >
> > The intersubjective system is separate but complementary to the attachment
> > system- and equally fundamental. Attachment theory has the two poles of
> > proximity/security at one pole and distance/exploration-curiosity at the
> > other pole. The attachment system is designed for physical closeness and
> > group bonding, rather than for psychological intimacy. Many people who are
> > "strongly" attached do not share psychological closeness or intimacy (in
> > fact, its the opposite) Intersubjectivity is needed for psychological
> > closeness.
> >
> > Stern points out in contrasting the systems of attachment and
> > intersubjectivity in experience they support and complement each other.
> > Stern points out that autistic children show greatly impaired
> > intersubjective skills but are attached to their parents. Stern believes it
> > is important to separate the two systems theoretically to understand that
> > people can be attached without sharing intimacy, or can be
> > intersubjectively
> > intimate without being attached, or both, or neither. For the fullest
> > connection both attachment and intersubjectivity are needed.
> >
> > Mike this was a long post to tease out the concepts Daniel Stern and others
> > are exploring. He does not fall into the trap of metaphorically
> > infantalizing the adult as traditional psychoanalysis did. He believes
> > these processes I outlined continue to be central for human connection
> > throughout the life cycle and the patterns are elaborated within cultural
> > contexts. His purpose is not to negate all the perspectives emerging from
> > the "LINGUISTIC TURN" but to call our attention to the profound power of
> > change in the particular intersubjective encounters and enactments that are
> > being acted out in all our human activity.
> >
> > Larry
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Larry Purss" <lpurss@shaw.ca>
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: RE: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you?
> >
> >
> > Hi Mabel
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.
> > I mentioned the "Boston Change Process Study Group" as a quick way to
> > explore this topic online. However if you want the best source which
> > elaborates this perspective I'm discussing I would recommend you get
> > Daniel
> > Stern's book written recently which is called "The Present Moment in
> > Psychotherapy and Everyday Life". He builds his case point by point and
> > references all the latest research in this area. I"m glad to meet another
> > person on chat who works in school settings, not in a teacher role but in a
> > counselling role. I also want to engage in school settings to promote the
> > "social turn" in emerging perspectives in our culture and how they
> > translate
> > to school settings. Vygotsky has already been introduced to school settings
> > through explorations of "developmental psychology" and learning
> > (scaffolding
> > and ZPD) and therefore is the best entry into schools to promote the
> > "social
> > turn" in relational cultural psychology. I, like Andy, Mike and others
> > also
> > am interested in pragmatism, especially G.H. Mead as another stream of
> > thought on the "social turn". For this reason I am interested in the chat
> > on Dewey and his perspective on "experience" as a term which can no longer
> > carry his meaning and his preference for the term "cultural". I believe
> > Dewey can be another way to amplify the "social turn" in school settings
> > because he already is seen as part of the historical narrative of school
> > culture.
> > My interest in relational psychoanalysis is my curiosity on how they are
> > embracing the "social turn" especially in the area of infant research.
> > What
> > they can add to the conversation is the recognition that development in the
> > first years of life (at the sensorimotor level and the affective level)
> > continues to develop and be elaborated and is not superceded by the
> > "linquistic turn". As D. Stern emphasizes, all the conversation and
> > theorizing elaborating a new framework which embraces the "linquistic turn"
> > is vital and critical to "open new spaces" in which to be human and move
> > away with our fixation on the "encapsulated" individual of the Cartesian
> > Paradigm. However, Stern's 30 years of studying mother-infant
> > intersubjective relational patterns and others who share his sensibility
> > (The Boston Change Study Group for example) believe we must also elaborate
> > our understanding of "implicit relational knowing". Andy's articles
> > discuss
> > Winnicot and his model of developmental psychology as adding to G.H. Mead's
> > and other perspectives on the origins of the social "self". The perspective
> > of Stern is elaborating this line of inquiry in the moment to moment
> > PRACTICAL activity as we interact with others.
> > Mabel, like you I feel I'm bridging two worlds of experience and language
> > games in the public school system. At times its overwhelming and
> > disorienting as I try to elaborate a moral and ethical stance to guide how
> > I
> > ought to act in settings which expect me to act within an intrapsychic
> > model. Vygotsky and CHAT help refocus and revision how I ought to act..
> > I hope this helps.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>
> > Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:03 am
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you?
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > >
> > > Hi, Larry.
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for the reference.
> > >
> > > Actually, I have been studying 'affect attunement' (although I
> > > do not call it in this way) in junior high school. I also
> > > discuss the implicitness in the communitation, although I call
> > > that unconscious, because it is not necessary that something has
> > > to have been 'conscious' to become 'unconscious' (in
> > > psychotherapy I am not a psychoanalist, but a Gestalt
> > > psychotherapist, but my research is founded on Vygotsky). I will
> > > check this as well!
> > >
> > > Thank you again.
> > >
> > > Mabel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:50:05 -0800
> > > > From: lpurss@shaw.ca
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you?
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > The discussion of the place of emotion in the developmental
> > > process is a central question.
> > > > I want to once again recommend googling "Boston Change Process
> > > Study Group" to read articles by a group of scholars engaging in
> > > exploring the interface BETWEEN emotions (implicit knowing) and
> > > consciousness (explicit understanding). Daniel Stern, a member
> > > of this group, is a seminal thinker in this area of study.
> > > > They have studied the intersubjective processes of "affect
> > > attunement" within the infant/caretaker relationship. They
> > > differentiate intersubjective processes (psychological
> > > processes) from "attachment" processes. HOWEVER what I believe
> > > is their major focus is the recognition that the processes of
> > > "implicit knowing" or "communication" that happen during infancy
> > > (implicit affective knowing) do NOT become superceded when
> > > language and symbolization is acquired. Their perspective is
> > > that this level of implicit knowing continues to develop and
> > > become more complex in the same way as cognition develops and
> > > becomes elaborated. They take the position that relating at the
> > > implicit level may become symbolically elaborated in language in
> > > an intersubjective context and thereby become explixit
> > > understanding. However it is their position that most implicit
> > > ways of relating remain imlicit or unformulated (NOT UNCONSCIOUS
> > > because they were never conscious before. The process is
> > > relational and NOT an intrapsychic phenomena. However one can
> > > take a phenomenological standpoint and make validity claims.
> > > However one could just as well choose to take an intersubjective
> > > communicative stance to "interpret" the processes. Or one could
> > > take a third person stance to "construct" an explanation. Each
> > > position taken allows one to make a validity claim one each
> > > claim is only an interpretation.
> > > > However it is at the implicit level of intersubjective
> > > contexts that " the person in "moments of meeting" experiences
> > > feeling engaged and vital.
> > > > I believe the construct of "learning" as mediated can benefit
> > > from incorporating this level of analysis.
> > > >
> > > > Andy this speaks to your statement that the "unit of analysis"
> > > should be the "subject" as elaborated by Hegel.
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca>
> > > > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:17 am
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you?
> > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >
> > > > > In the following piece, we show how emotion (as evidenced in
> > > > > prosody)
> > > > > is a resource for the coordination of social action. Michael
> > > > >
> > > > > Cult Stud of Sci Educ
> > > > > DOI 10.1007/s11422-009-9203-8
> > > > > Solidarity and conflict: aligned and misaligned prosody
> > > > > as a transactional resource in intra- and intercultural
> > > > > communication involving power differences
> > > > > Wolff-Michael Roth Æ Kenneth Tobin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2009-11-14, at 6:55 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm going to ignore Andy's request to ignore his message to
> > > > > Mabel,
> > > > > because I'm sure Mabel is not the only person being told
> > > this
> > > > > sort of
> > > > > thing. The claim, I suppose, is that emotion is a
> > > > > subjective
> > > > > experience, and therefore something mental, internal,
> > > > > personal,
> > > > > private and so inaccessible to other people, including the
> > > > > researcher,
> > > > > who has access only to the external 'expression' of that
> > > > > emotion, on
> > > > > the face, in movements, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nonsense. How to argue against that view? Take a look at Joe
> > > > > de
> > > > > Rivera's work on emotions as interpersonal movements,
> > > towards or
> > > > > away
> > > > > from people on three interpersonal dimensions of intimacy,
> > > > > openness,
> > > > > and status. Read Hall and Cobey (1976) on emotion as
> > > > > transformation of
> > > > > the world. Read Mead's Mind, Self and Society where he
> > > > > challenges
> > > > > Darwin, insisting that "we cannot approach them [emotions]
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > point of view of expressing a content in the mind of the
> > > > > individual" (p. 17) because to do so presumes a dualism
> > > > > between
> > > > > consciousness and the biological organism.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are some resources that come immediately to my mind.
> > > What
> > > > > can
> > > > > others out there recommend?
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 14, 2009, at 4:42 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > You have good muses Mabel (Vygotsky and Marx), pity you
> > > > > > don't have better supervisors. Your approach, studying
> > > > > > microsituations as social, is Vygotsky's approach too, I
> > > > > > think, and excellent one, that is often, I fear, not well
> > > > > > understood. I am probably the last person to ask about that
> > > > > > kind of problem as I have a devil of a problem making myself
> > > > > > understood. Others will know the answers to your questions
> > > > > > better than me, too. But I will mention a few suggestions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > > >> My supervisors are questioning now, that I do not study
> > > > > emotions,
> > > > > >> but "the expression of emotions". I know how to solidify
> > > > > my
> > > > > >> argument in this bit, but could you please give me some
> > > > > references
> > > > > >> of where should I read about the difference-relation
> > > > > between
> > > > > >> ontological and methodological dualism?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess you have already read Vygotsky's comments on
> > > > > > ontological vs methodological/epistemological dualism:
> > > > > > http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you use Google on this one, you will probably find a page
> > > > > > where I am being attacked by someone called Neville for
> > > > > > failing to make this distinction. I am far from sure of the
> > > > > > value of that exchange but you are welcome to read it. I
> > > > > > would not attempt a short summary of this issue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not sure what you are being accused of about emotions.
> > > > > > Martha Nussbaum is a Critical Theorist who writes good stuff
> > > > > > about emotions. And of course everyone reads Antonio
> > > > > > Damassio, with his distinction between feelings and
> > > > > > emotions. Certainly, emotions are only present in
> > > > > > consciousness thanks to their "interpretation" by culturally
> > > > > > acquired concepts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ""the expression of emotions" is a strange expression to me.
> > > > > > Are they using "emotions" to refer to forms of consciousness
> > > > > > which are "expressed" in high blood pressure, etc? Or are
> > > > > > they using "emotions" to refer to physiological conditions,
> > > > > > which are "expressed" in the character of behavior. I don't
> > > > > > understand. I am sure others will know. Sounds like a
> > > > > > template accusation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
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