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RE: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
Thank you.
There is a triad (in Volochinov/Bakthin and in Peirce too, of course). That you des-
cribed:
The referent (closer to objective) <--------> The interpretant (closer to subjetive)
.....................................................|.........................................................
.....................................................|.........................................................
................................The sign (one foot in both)...........................................
But I have a question yet...
The interpretant is not closer to "znatchenie" (meaning) concept in Vygotsky? I ask
because, the problem o sign is related to "generalization"... And "generalization" is
very close to the "meaning" concept. See: If priznak, the clue, have a unique referent,
there is no chance to social communication... Nor no necessity (because: one sign have
only one thing, then it can turns not relevant to tell something about this to another
person, it turns "natural", or so idiosyncratic that nobody could understand what it
means to me); but if a sign (znak ou priznak) can have many referents, must occurs
generalization, then communication is possible, and necessary... Well, why I think this?
Because in this way of thinking, the generalization (maybe the "interpretant" - immediate
or dynamic) is not so idiosyncratic. The interpretant is just at the place (the role) of sign
component that links: (A) "sign" (signifying - or "representamen") and (B) the object,
(referent, the "thing")... Then I don't know, without "generalization" (meaning/interpretant)
how can a "sound", or "trace", or "colour", any perceptual strata turns a real "sign"?
The sign is not only a thing... Of course there are two ways to think the sign: (1) one
of the three components (the material signifying), and all the relations between the
the same three components... But even so. I have more another design:
........interpretant (generalization/a modus operandi/an action)...........
..........................................|...................................................
..........................................|...................................................
sign (materiality)<------------------------------>object (another materality)
=)
Achilles.
> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:09:16 -0700
> From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> Well!
>
> Achilles, there's a BRILLIANT and very much under-read essay by Volosinov which is appended to "Freudianism: A Marxist critique". It's called "Discourse in life and discourse in art".
>
> In this essay, he describes two people in a room. It's almost May. But outside snow begins to fall. One of them looks up and says "Well!"
>
> Then Volosinov describes--step by step--the transition from what we are calling "natural" meaning (that is, that snowfall in May means six more weeks of Moscow winter) to what we are calling non-natural or cultural or even inter-personal meaning (that the two people in the room are united in disgust and revulsion and hankering for spring).
>
> At each step, there is of course a referent, which tends to the objective (or, at the extreme end, the natural). Then there is an interpretant which tends to the subjective (at the extreme end, the intra-personal). But in between, there is the sign, which has one foot firmly in both.
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
> --- On Tue, 10/27/09, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 1:48 PM
>
>
>
> Thank you, for all, for the lesson!
>
> But, I don't understand, I wondered that an "index" was a sign with "contiguity" relationship between significant (sometimes called "sign" too) and the object (referent). Like the "smoke" to the "fire". Then, the "redness" of Tomato to its ripeness, seems to be an "index" to me. About "cultural" X "non-cultural", I really don't know, because can exist cultural techniques to recognizes how "red" a tomato is, can not? And the perception to that redness is not cultural mediated too? Seems to be not so natural when my father can look to sky and know about if will go rain or not, and I can say almost nothing about the relation between clouds and actual rain after, my previsions are not so precise like his, that are almost "scientific" (empirical based formulations). I wondered "priznaks" as clues, as "index"... But to read the clues, a detective is not alone with natural forces, he must to have some investigation techniques, some mediations, some
> "generalizations" do not he?
>
> Achilles.
>
>
> > From: Peg.Griffin@att.net
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
> > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:59:26 -0400
> >
> > oops -- the sunburn is meaning natural
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Peg Griffin
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:36 AM
> > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; 'eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity'
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
> >
> > Grice does it more like this:
> > Tomatoes as well as squirrels and humans can express "meaning natural."
> >
> > Both squirrels and humans also understand the "meaning natural." I don't
> > know about other tomatoes.
> >
> > Tomatoes, though, don't express "meaning non-natural."
> > Squirrels? I don't know about squirrels and the expression of non-natural
> > meaning; those cute sexy bonobos, though, they do express and understand
> > meaning non-natural (according to fairly recent work on their "writing" in
> > the dirt).
> >
> > A human blush is "meaning natural" but tomatoes and squirrels (and some
> > humans) may not attend to it or "get it."
> > A human's sun-burn is meaning non-natural, too. But it arises and we work
> > it out differently than we would a blush.
> > And humans with different socio-cultural resources may interpret the blush
> > differently.
> >
> > Meaning non-natural includes language and other socio-cultural conventional
> > systems, whether static and limited or generative and creative, explicit,
> > implied, or inferred via reliance on implicatures.
> > Grice has written about indexicality clearly within the meaning non-natural
> > realm but not much related to Pierce's index, I think.
> > So not sure if any one of this matters to priznak.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > Behalf Of mike cole
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:59 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
> >
> > So pre-znak is natural line of development, while znak is cultural line?
> > Naw. My squirrels know when my tomatoes are ripe, darn critters.
> > mike
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > BTW, H. P. Grice used an example like "redness of a tomato ... that it
> > > is ripe" when he was discussing his distinction between "meaning
> > > natural" and "meaning non-natural."
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > On Behalf Of Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:14 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
> > >
> > > I would say that znak is closer to index but priznak may be also some
> > > real quality (redness of a tomato is a priznak that it is ripe) may be
> > > priznak we can see as pre znak?
> > > Bella Kotik
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 12:48 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi, XMCA,
> > > >
> > > > One more extemporaneous question.
> > > >
> > > > Do you know something about any relations between the Russian term
> > > > "priznak"
> > > > and the peircean concept of "index"? There are many mentions to
> > "priznak"
> > > > in the
> > > > "Studies on the history of behavior: ape, primitive, and child" from
> > > > Vygotsky and Luria... and, of course, a "priznak" must be a kind of
> > > > "znak" (sign)...
> > > > But no
> > > > necessarily the "priznak"'s role, in some kinds of relations between
> > > > human beings and his environment, is posed in strictly semiotic
> > > > terms along the book...
> > > > Can we
> > > > find something more about the role of "index" in Vygotsky theory of
> > sign?
> > > > How
> > > > does Russian semiotics designate Pierce typology of sings, for instance?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > > >From Brazil.
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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