Re: [xmca] Internalization of performance standards

[Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>]

A humble empirical observation from Carol:

In recent work with a student on promoting the zpd in the English classroom,
in an ideal situation (only 20 girls in the class) and explicitly using the
concept of the double move (Hedegaard), and the group zpd (H and also
Wells). Granted this research was only 6 months in length,  the girls'
performance was radically affected for the better, including their
motivation and pride.  *However the ranking of *t*heir **competence (sorry
that's my term) in the class stayed exactly the same as had surfaced with
regular pedagogy. *I like (to help students) to work with broad and narrow
zpd's (and teach usinga crocodile jaws picture), and must surely say that in
this research context, that the relative width of the learners' zpd is
preserved in the analysis of the classes' peformance. What does this mean
for a single student...does it mean that she is *only* able to *conceptualise
the task to a previously established limit? *Sure, the groups did better
than any individual (Gordon's notion), but laying underneath there seems to
be a limiting condition. I think this speaks to internalization, but with
"terms and conditions" attached.  I do  hope I have made myself clear. I
certainly get slightly anxious about the situation, or more aptly my lack of
ability to explain this in another way.

C.

PS. NCLB is in our SA curriculum, and it's so naive about learning that it's
not worth discussing.

2009/3/25 Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>

> Yes.
> We are discussing the homology (?) (maybe wrong word) between changes at
> individual and activity/organizational level.
>
> This might go macro to Goffman, not sure.
> passing and management are closely releated to
> appropriation and appropriate, i think.
> bon soir
> mike
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > Well, if you put it that way (smile), you take me back, in a sense, to
> > Goffman and face work  (and, perhaps, elsewhere) and I would say yes it
> does
> > happen at the organizational level and it may not just be an accumulation
> of
> > internalized individuals. In fact, I wonder if any individual need
> > internalize. That is, the They is actually anonymous.
> > Ed
> >
> > On Mar 24, 2009, at 11:20 PM, Mike Cole wrote:
> >
> > Yes. We appear to be talking past each other with lots of bemused
> > observers.
> >
> > I misinterpreted your first message because I had this
> > quick response to the word "standards" which in my
> > life comes up most often in the NCLB context. You quite appropriately
> > reoriented me.
> >
> > But I got to thinking, as I often do, about internalization
> > at the level of individuals and of organizations. Hence my response.
> >
> > In YOUR context (now) I believe we agree.
> > mike
> >
> > PS-- Do you think I am totally off the wall in drawing an analogy between
> > internalization at the individual and organizational levels? (Disinterest
> > aside). Certainly very possible!!!
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Mike
> >>      I'm sorry, I have no real interest in NCLB (that isn't true, but
> not
> >> in this context). I was referring to the sense in which Bodrova and
> Leong
> >> seem to be using it. You seem to recognize that sense?
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >> On Mar 24, 2009, at 11:04 PM, Mike Cole wrote:
> >>
> >> Ed-- I do not have the refs to hand, but there is quite a literature on
> >> the impact of NCLBehind on classroom
> >> practices.
> >>
> >> Peter S and many others. Help!!
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Mike
> >>>         There is always the question of the Other and volumes have been
> >>> written on this. However, it is the process of this type of
> internalization
> >>> in which I'm interested as it seems to be always simultaneously
> problematic
> >>> and crucial. So as you say THAT, might you say more about THAT (smile)
> or
> >>> point me, as you have graciously done, in the direction?
> >>>
> >>> Ed
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 24, 2009, at 8:29 PM, Mike Cole wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Oh, THAT kind of performance standards. I was missing the context. e.g.
> >>> we internalize the expectations that others have of us.
> >>>
> >>> Shifting contexts to the level of national educational policy (which
> was
> >>> the context I created with your words) provides an sort of interesting
> way
> >>> to think about the extent to which no child left behind standards were
> >>> internalized. At the institutional level, a lot in some places judging
> by
> >>> the way in which classrooms have been changed into test driven
> organizations
> >>> and accepted as "appropriate" (having been appropriated!).
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Mike
> >>>>
> >>>>      The idea behind such a phrasing, if I understand correctly, seems
> >>>> to predate Aristotle (he says something like "We think it proper for
> the
> >>>> young to be modest, because as they live by feeling they often err,
> and
> >>>> modesty may keep them in check"), but such wording (i.e.
>  'internalization
> >>>> of performance standards') appears in Elena Bodrova and Deborah J.
> Leong.
> >>>> Tools of the Mind so I had assumed that it was somewhat usual.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ed
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:43 AM, Mike Cole wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>  Could you expand please, Ed? I am not certain of what you mean.
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  Hi Folks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   In some reading I've been doing the notion of, one might say,
> >>>>>> 'internalization of performance standards' appears. I have the
> >>>>>> impression
> >>>>>> that Vygotsky thought something like thist and/or some of those
> after
> >>>>>> him.
> >>>>>> Any places I can look for more information?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ed Wall
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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