Re: [xmca] Microcosm and Unit

[Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

thanks martin and andy. still struggling with this and minotaurs. I keep
getting tangled in this thread lying on the floor.
mike

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Sorry, I missed the question at the end of Martin's post which changes its
> meaning. The following is a more cautious reply:
>
>
> -----------------------
> Martin:
>
> Andy, you must have seen this in Thinking & Speaking:
>
> "The unit contains, in a simple, primitive form, the
> characteristics of the whole that is the object of analysis"
> (p 244, chapter 7)
>
> This seems to say that, yes, unit of analysis and microscosm
> have different meanings, but also that a correctly-selected
> unit of analysis will be a microcosm.
>
> ------------------------
> Andy:
>
> Well "unit of analysis" and "microcosm" are relative terms.
> We can talk of "the unit of analysis of the relation between
> thinking and speaking" or we can talk about "the unit of
> analysis of human consciousness" just as we can talk about
> the height of Mt Everest and the height of Mt Blanc. Not the
> same.
>
> Then if we are comparing apples with apples: Is the
> correctly-selected unit of anaysis of the relation between
> thinking and speaking also a microcosm of the relation
> between thinking and speaking? And is the correctly-selected
> unit of anaysis of human consciousness also a microcosm of
> human consciousness? Confusing questions, but I think "no."
>
> What we have is that the unit of analysis of the relation
> between thinking and speaking is a microcosm for human
> consciousness. The reason is that thinking and speaking is
> the most develop form of activity, not the most primitive, I
> think.
>
> ------------------------
> Martin:
>
> And then the next sentence:
>
> "We found the unit that reflects the unity of thinking and
> speech in the meaning of the word."
>
> You will agree, no, that this is saying that word meaning is
> the unit of analysis of the relationship of thinking and
> speaking? Why not, then, the unit of analysis of consciousness?
>
> ------------------------
> Andy:
>
> OK, So I was with you up to your question, and I missed the
> question. Sorry. Why is the unit of analysis of the
> relationship of thinking and speaking not also the unit of
> analysis of consciousness?
>
> Because it's a special case, and what is more, not the most
> primitive but the most developed. By the time people are
> talking to each other, the really interesting relations have
> already been accomplished. The point is to conceptually
> start at the beginning of what is being studied.
>
> THinking and speaking is not the most primitive or primeval
> modes of "joint artefact-mediated activity", but the most
> developed.
>
> ---------------------------
>
> puzzled,
>
> Martin
>
> ---------------------------
> Andy:
>
> The two concepts are similar, but as Nikolai said, Vygotsky
> said, I said and I think you said, they are different
> concepts. I think "microcosm" answers to the question "where
> to strike?" while "unit of analysis" answers to the question
> "what in essence unites this whole field?"
>
> Andy
>
> ----------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden wrote:
>
>> You are spot on in my view, Martin.
>>
>> "Word meaning is the unit of analysis of the relationship of thinking and
>> speaking?" (quoting you) and because of the place of speech in human life as
>> a whole, the unit of analysis for the relation of speaking and thinking is a
>> microcosm of the wider domain: "human consciousness."
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>
>>> Andy, you must have seen this in Thinking & Speaking:
>>>
>>> "The unit contains, in a simple, primitive form, the characteristics of
>>> the
>>> whole that is the object of analysis" (p 244, chapter 7)
>>>
>>> This seems to say that, yes, unit of analysis and microscosm have
>>> different
>>> meanings, but also that a correctly-selected unit of analysis will be a
>>> microcosm.
>>>
>>> And then the next sentence:
>>>
>>> "We found the unit that reflects the unity of thinking and speech in the
>>> meaning of the word."
>>>
>>> You will agree, no, that this is saying that word meaning is the unit of
>>> analysis of the relationship of thinking and speaking? Why not, then, the
>>> unit of analysis of consciousness?
>>>
>>> puzzled,
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> On 2/22/09 9:48 AM, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> "We showed that a generalised reflection of reality is the
>>>> basic characteristic of words. This aspect of the word
>>>> brings us to the threshold of a wider and deeper subject ­
>>>> the general problem of consciousness. Thought and language,
>>>> which reflect reality in a way different from that of
>>>> perception, are the key to the nature of human
>>>> consciousness. Words play a central part not only in the
>>>> development of thought but in the historical growth of
>>>> consciousness as a whole. A word is a microcosm of human
>>>> consciousness." (end ch 7 Thinking and Speaking)
>>>>
>>>> I take this in the same way: if you can thoroughly
>>>> understand how words operate in human life then you will
>>>> have solved all the essential problems.
>>>>
>>>> On this basis, I agree with Nikolai, that "microcosm" and
>>>> "unit of analysis" have quite different meanings. I would be
>>>> inclined to anyway, as I do not believe that "word meaning"
>>>> can be a unit of analysis for consciousness.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ +61 3 9380 9435 Skype
> andy.blunden
> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>
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