Re: [xmca] A funny quote: Luria, A.N. Leontiev, & Velichkovsky :)

["Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Fascinating everyone's fascination with the tensions between Vygotsky and
his students and among the students. I too, have stories straight from
various
horse's mouths. Dead, now, those horses, for the most part.

25 years after the personal tensions exhibited here, the principal parties,
despite their differences, were cooperating in the recovery of Vygotsky's
ideas.
They had managed to re-connect in sufficient closenes so that others, for
example, the students of Rubenshtein and allies, could treat them as "the
bad guys" (collectively) and drive them from positions of power in Soviet
Psychology which THEY put on the map.

I personally do not find any of this kind of speculation and detective work
help in trying to develop a cultural-historical psychology founded in
everyday human activities. I find the efforts of members of XMCA who
struggle wtih the texts, try to weed our gold from dross, to recoup the
logic and the empirical
evidence of research, and who do this in an attempt to create a more
adequate study of human beings in the service of a more humane human life
world, far more enlightening.

For example, we do not have, despite the efforts of several, a good
chronology of the LSV texts, let alone a chronology that puts it in the
historical contexts of its specific times, and from 1928-1934 the time they
were a changing, rapidly and dangerously, in Moscow, Kharkov, and Leningrad.

My .05 cents worth.
mike

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> And the contempt was flowing in more than one direction. See attached
> letter from ANL to LSV about ARL.
>
>
> Andy
>
> David Kellogg wrote:
>
>> Bella--
>>  Yes, it's hard to imagine. But consider this account of Leontiev's work
>> from Luria:
>>  "Social labor and the division of labor result in indirect behavior which
>> is subject to social as well as biological stimuli. It is precisely these
>> factors which give rise to new nonbiological human needs. Thus are formed
>> those specifically human forms of mental activity. This activity can give
>> rise to intiating stimuli and goals which in turn lead to specific acts.
>> These acts are carried out by the appropriate set of operations. The
>> structure of the complex forms of human activity has been worked out in
>> detail in Soviet psychology by A.N. Leontiev. We will not, therefore, dwell
>> on this question in greater detail here."
>>  What does that LAST lukewarm sentence really mean, here on p. 26 of a 246
>> page book entitled "Language and Cognition"? (1981, New York: Wiley).
>>  To me it can only mean one of two things:
>>  a) Leontiev's account of activity is okay as far as it goes, but it does
>> not go as far as language or cognition.
>>  b) Leontiev's account of activity does go far as language and cognition,
>> but it is not a scientifically valid account.
>>  Of course, what ARL really says is a) and not b). But that would mean
>> that ARL considers that neither language nor cognition are specifically
>> human forms of activity. So perhaps a) is simply a diplomatic way of saying
>> b)?
>>  David Kellogg
>> Seoul National University of Education
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] A funny quote: Luria, A.N. Leontiev, & Velichkovsky :)
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:50 AM
>>
>> As far as I knew ARL I can only say  that it is hard to believe he would
>> use
>> such a harsh language speaking about Leontjev.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Interesting anecdotal story.  It raises a question I am very curious
>>>
>> about.
>>
>>>  What is known of Luria's assessment of Leontiev's activity theory
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> theory of animal psychic evolution?
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:54 PM, Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
>>>
>>> I just came across this text and thought this might be of some interest
>>> to
>>>
>>>> some people out there. In his interview about A.N. Leontiev taken on
>>>> September 12, 2002 Boris Velichkovsky mentioned inter alia  that
>>>>
>>> "Alexander
>>
>>> Romanovich [Luria] once quite harshly put it in my presence that he
>>>>
>>> did not
>>
>>> consider as related to scientific research anything that Leontiev was
>>>>
>>> doing
>>
>>> from the beginning of the 1940s onwards". Literally, --
>>>>
>>>> Алек сандр Ро ма но вич од на ж ды до
>>>>
>>> воль но же ст ко ска зал в мо ем при
>>
>>> сут ст вии,
>>>> что не счи та ет то, что де ла ет Ле он
>>>>
>>> ть ев с на ча ла 40‑х го дов имею
>>
>>> щим
>>>> от но ше ние к нау ке (
>>>>
>>> http://www.anleontiev.smysl.ru/vospomin/i-velich.htm
>>
>>> )
>>>>
>>>> Just I guess some food for thought about the school of
>>>> Vygotsky-Leontiev-Luria (not sure about the canonical order of the
>>>>
>>> names)
>>
>>> and the theoretical foundations of the so-called CHAT :)...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
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