Re: [xmca] XM, C's and H's

Derek--
There are never a dearth of *anyone else's* around. To get some idea of just
now many, check the membership of
xmca at lchc.ucsd.edu discussions!!

If everyone responded to every message we would all be pushing a lot of shit
up a hill! :-))
(and if more people would chip in with observations, suggestions, and
questions, we would all be a lot better
educated, metaphorically speaking). (Come to think of it, getting educated
DOES seem to require pushing a lot of
shit up a hill!!)

mike
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> I will hold my tongue after this and give others a go.
>
> So far as I can see, you do not put any kind of question mark over
> consciousness. You define consciousness as an action, but action inclusive
> of actions like "thinking of something," and bring as evidence that no-one
> would think of denying it, and that people have experience of being
> conscious.
>
> I seem to have picked wrong word. In your first mail you said "mind is a
> fiction," and I got the impression you denied "subjectivity," "society" and
> "social structure."
>
> But "thinking," "awareness," "knowledge," "activity" and "consciousness"
> are OK it seems.
>
> I'll read your essays.
>
> Andy
>
> Derek Melser wrote:
>
>> Andy, and anyone else?
>> Well, I would say heat is a relative physical state, immediately
>> objectively observable, scientifically specifiable and measurable... real
>> as, man. I mean, put your hand in the fire. Who would think heat is 'a
>> metaphor', a 'fiction'? And just because heat is such a ground-level
>> physical reality in our lives, it seems odd even to raise the question
>> whether it 'exists' or not.
>>
>> Consciousness, if it is conceived as a light inside someone's head (or
>> brain) or as, really, any kind of goings-on inside people's heads, is a
>> fiction, and a metaphor. But conceived in a more sophisticated way, as an
>> /action/ -- in the sense of someone being conscious of the lateness of the
>> hour, being conscious of that tiny fracture in the windscreen, or someone
>> carefully thinking what he is doing -- consciousness is not going to attract
>> any reality doubts. No-one would think of denying the 'existence' (at least,
>> the existence as a practice) of consciousness. You can see people doing it
>> all the time, and one knows what it is like to do, to be conscious of
>> something, or to be conscious of doing something, to be self-aware in the
>> act of doing something.
>>
>> Well, what's the difference between the reality of physical states and
>> properties such as heat, and the reality of actions? Is that what you're
>> keen to know, Andy? Which is the more 'real'? Which exists more 'strongly',
>> perhaps?
>> Really, Andy, if you want examples of metaphor you should look at
>> expressions like "his patience was wearing thin", "pushing shit up hill",
>> and so on...
>>
>>
>> 2008/12/16 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>
>>
>> I promise to follow up on those essays Derek, but let me ask you one
>> more question.
>>
>> Do you think heat exists, or is it a metaphor or fiction or
>> something, like consciousness. And what's the difference?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Derek Melser wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Andy,
>> I knew of the book, and have actually skimmed it, but didn't
>> notice the quality of his account of folk theory. I've had a
>> good look at it now. It's a lot more interesting, as a defence
>> of folk psychology, than the other stuff I read on the subject
>> for my PhD. But I think, if this of Bruner grabs you, that you
>> would find my own account of folk psychology (alias 'theory
>> theory') interesting too. It makes up the first part of the
>> first of two chapters ('Where our notion of the mind comes from
>> 1' & '2') in that stunning feat of anti-cognitivism, /The Act of
>> Thinking... /(browseable on Google books aussi).
>>
>> I remember having to bone up on the Grice stuff about reciprocal
>> communicative intentions some decades ago. In my view (see:
>> http://www.derekmelser.org/essays/essayverbal.html ) the
>> cooperative aspects of verbal communication are relatively
>> superficial and, fundamentally, verbal communication is a
>> /concerted/ activity (of speaker and hearer).
>>
>> I still think the Santa analogy holds good. 'It's just a
>> children's story.' As long as the child knows what really goes
>> on at Christmas, who it is who is really giving the prezzies,
>> the realisation that Santa is a myth shouldn't be too difficult.
>> But, you're right, it's very different, in practice, with 'mind'
>> (etc.). Even if you can point precisely to what the metaphor is
>> about, what the reality underlying the metaphor consists of,
>> what 'mind' is a metaphor /for/, people are still going to be
>> incredulous, even indignant.
>> I remember as a young philosophy tutor steeped in Ryle,
>> commenting to a psychiatrist (a friend's father, head of a large
>> institution) that I had a lot of trouble getting my tutorial
>> class to even understand the idea that, really, there is no such
>> thing as 'the mind'. His expression suddenly became grim. He
>> said, "Do they really let you teach that?"
>> One last thing. I'm not an atheist any more than I am a
>> behaviourist. (Nor, of course, am I a naive theist, or a naive
>> realist about folk psychology). Hopefully, my views in both
>> areas are a bit more sophisticated. Not going along with the
>> folk myths doesn't necessarily imply a defection from whatever
>> solidarity is around, though. For example,
>> Merry Christmas.
>> Derek
>>
>>
>> 2008/12/16 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
>>
>>
>> At last! I've been driving myself crazy over this one. The
>> discussion of "Folk Psychology" I liked was in:
>>
>> *Jerome Bruner. Acts of Meaning: Four Lectures on Mind and
>> Culture*
>>
>> It's on Google books, so you can check it out there. Sorry
>> for all
>> that! :(
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>> Derek, I should sleep some more, and then maybe I'd
>> remember not
>> only how to spell an author's name, but also which author
>> I was
>> reading! My apologies. I will continue trying to discover in
>> which book I found this interesing argument.
>>
>> But in the meantime, I was not absolutely completely
>> deceiving
>> you in that Tomasello has an extended argument about what he
>> calls "Gricean Communicative intention," the drift of
>> which is
>> that you can only make sense of people's speech and
>> actions on
>> the basis that the speaker assumes that the listener
>> knows what
>> the speaker's intention is, and that the speaker knows
>> that the
>> listener knows that the speaker knows that the listener
>> knows
>> the speaker's intention, and so on ad infinitum. In my
>> words a
>> rational knowledge of "folk psychology" is presupposed in
>> communicative action.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Derek Melser wrote:
>>
>> Andy,
>> I was looking up Tomasello's 'Origins of Human
>> Communication' on google books -- as you were writing
>> this
>> last email of yours, as it happens -- hoping to
>> browse the
>> bit on folk psychology, but it assures me there is no
>> reference to 'folk psychology' in the entire book.
>> How can
>> this be???
>> DM
>>
>> 2008/12/16 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Oops, I meant Michael Tomasello. (I realised this
>> while
>> asleep last
>> night! Isn't that weird?)
>> Andy
>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>>
>> Michael Thomasino has a nice bit about "folk
>> psychology" in his
>> "Origins of Human Communication" where he
>> points out
>> that folk
>> psychology exists as a real force in human
>> life and
>> goes from
>> there into a very interesting argument. You
>> should
>> have a look
>> at it.
>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/>>
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/>>
>> +61 3 9380 9435 Skype
>> andy.blunden
>>
>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>>
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>> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/>> +61 3
>> 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>>
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> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ +61 3 9380 9435 Skype
> andy.blunden
>
> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>
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Received on Tue Dec 16 09:26:03 2008