Re: [xmca] Marx and Engels works quoted by LSV

From: Andy Blunden <ablunden who-is-at>
Date: Wed Dec 03 2008 - 05:57:48 PST

Supplementary to that ...

I think "My relation to my environment is my consciousness"
is LSV's precis of the famous first chapter of The German

which is in the first section of V. 3 of the Russian edition
of the CW:

BTW, Marx never actually says it as flatly as that.

If you can read Russian, then the above URL is the best
resource for checking Marx-Engels quotes from the Russians.
Unfortunately, is lacking a Russian
administrator at the moment and we have only a small
collection of Marx in Russian.

Also, the 1844 Manuscripts were first deciphered and
translated into English by Raya Dunayevskaya, but as a
supporter of Trotsky her work was ignored to by the Stalinists.


Andy Blunden wrote:
> I was just going from memory as well Bruce. The Economic and Philosophic
> Manuscripts of 1844 was first published by the Institute of
> Marxism-Leninism in Moscow in German: Marx/Engels, Gesamtausgabe, Abt.
> 1, Bd. 3, 1932. I have always believed that LSV knew about the material
> prior to that, but now I don't know what I based that on.
> I think Achilles is right. This is going to need some work. I have been
> trying to figure out where LSV's favourite quote comes from: "My
> relation to my environment is my consciousness" which the editors of LSV
> CW cite as from "K. Marx and F. Engels. Works, Vol. 3, p. 29." But I
> cannot find it anywhere, and not in Vol. 3 of MECW published in 1975.
> I'll keep chasing this one.
> Andy
> Bruce Robinson wrote:
>> I'm going from my fallible memory here as I haven't got ime to dig out
>> references... The German Ideology was first published (in part, I
>> think) in German in 1902 in Mehring's 'Aus dem literarischen Nachlass
>> von Marx und Engels'. The 1844 Manuscripts surfaced and were certainly
>> known in the USSR in 1932 or 1933 (though I'm not sure if they were
>> published then). Ryazanov, the head of the Marx-Engels Institure which
>> worked on these manuscripts was purged and died in 1938. The planned
>> complete Russian editon of Marx and Engels' work was abandoned in the
>> 30s. LSV was clearly familiar with the German Ideology. Andy, I was
>> wondering what direct evidence there was for saying he was
>> "acquainted" with the 1844 Manuscripts.
>> I think the 1844 manuscripts were first published in English in the
>> 50s. Stuart MacIntyre's book "A Proletarian Science" gives a table of
>> which of Marx's works were available in English before 1939. It does
>> include some of the early works but not the manuscripts.
>> Bruce Robinson
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" <>
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Marx and Engels works quoted by LSV
>>> Achilles, I own all 50 volumes of the English language MECW, plus I
>>> have transcribed a good proportion of it at
>>> I also have the LSV CW, so if you have a particular difficulty just
>>> ask me and I can probably tell you the answer. As the volunteer on
>>> responsible for the Marx-Engels Archive I get frequent
>>> questions of this nature.
>>> It is true that in Vygotsky's lifetime much of Marx's corpus was not
>>> translated into Russian let alone English and published. I don't
>>> think this is a matter of Stalinism, just that the work of publishing
>>> is vast, and is still on going to this day: MEGA2 (CW German) has
>>> just been published, going beyond what was in MECW published 1975-2005.
>>> In particular, the 1844 Manuscripts which contain a lot of Marx's
>>> early speculations about language, human nature and so on, were only
>>> just discovered and being deciphered in those years, and Vygotsky was
>>> privileged to be acquainted with them. Likewise, The German Ideology,
>>> was left by Marx and Engels as a mass of crumpled manuscripts, and
>>> deciphering them, with all their important observations, took time.
>>> Andy
>>> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
>>>> Greetings for all
>>>> Can you help me with one more operational question?
>>>> In the English and Spanish editions of the Collected
>>>> Works from Vygotky, there are many quotations to
>>>> Marx in which we cannot directly know what re the
>>>> actual works quoted, because Vygotsky used a Russian
>>>> edition of the "Works" of Marx and Engels. Well, I
>>>> wish to ask you:
>>>> Is there some available index of that Marx and Engels
>>>> works quoted by Vygotsky, in which we can recognize
>>>> the original titles, in order to map what actual works
>>>> he actually had accessed? I have notice that in stalinist period
>>>> some Marx works
>>>> was not availlable, mainly the young "idealist" Marx.
>>>> Do you confirm this notice? Even you can't help me with this
>>>> index... more important
>>>> would be any help in order to give me clues about the
>>>> marxists texts actually read by Vygotsky.
>>>> Thank you very much.
>>>> Achilles
>>>>> From:
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Is there something about/from the musicologist
>>>>> Volochinov?
>>>>> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:10:53 +0000
>>>>> Thank you very much David,
>>>>> Your contribution set me a little confused,
>>>>> because I had another information from other
>>>>> source, but now I believe that this source can
>>>>> be not so trusty. It is the biographical description
>>>>> of V.N.V. at Russian Wikipedia, as follow:
>>>>> "Учился на
>>>>> юридическом факультете Петроградского университета, в 1916 прервал
>>>>> образование
>>>>> В начале 1920-х жил в Витебске, опубликовал несколько статей о
>>>>> музыке."
>>>>> "He learned in the juridical department of Petrograd University,
>>>>> at 1916 interrupted the
>>>>> formation. At the beginning of the 1920’s
>>>>> leaved in Vitebsk, published several articles about
>>>>> music."
>>>>> I had believed that we could find some of these articles... And now
>>>>> I do not now about the existence of these
>>>>> articles, because your note.
>>>>> Well, it's fine... You make me to doubt... And to doubt
>>>>> is very important in order to make dialog goes on.
>>>>> Thank you again.
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Achilles.
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:36:48 -0800
>>>>>> From:
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Is there something about/from the musician
>>>>>> Volochinov?
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> Dear Achilles:
>>>>>> I'm no longer sure that Volosinov was a musicologist. The only
>>>>>> thing I really know about this is the reference to him by as a
>>>>>> musicologist by Michael Holquist in the introduction to "The
>>>>>> Dialogic Imagination", p. xxii, and I don't really trust this,
>>>>>> because Holquist is trying desperately to prove that Volosinov
>>>>>> could not have written "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language"
>>>>>> and it is therefore the work of his hero Bakhtin. In this he is
>>>>>> certainly wrong.
>>>>>> I don't see much musicology in Volosinov's work, except the
>>>>>> much-misunderstood passage where VNV says that the word is a
>>>>>> "neutral" sign. This is often interpreted to mean that VNV
>>>>>> believed in non-ideological language. That is absurd, and it only
>>>>>> shows how very non-neutral our understanding of "ideology" has
>>>>>> become.
>>>>>> For VNV ideology simply means the production of ideas, and
>>>>>> language that does not in some way engage with the production of
>>>>>> ideas is hardly language. What VNV does mean is that the word is
>>>>>> not like a number or a musical note, both of which have become
>>>>>> functionally differentiated and dedicated signs within a specific
>>>>>> field of semiosis and which cannot really be used outside of them.
>>>>>> Volosinov was clearly influenced by Wolfflin's book on painting.
>>>>>> But I'm pretty sure he wasn't a painter!
>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>> Seoul National University of Education
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Achilles Delari Junior
>>>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior <>
>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Is there something about/from the musician
>>>>>> Volochinov?
>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <>
>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 7:25 PM
>>>>>> Greetings for all,
>>>>>> One more operational question to you:
>>>>>> Is there some wrote production about/
>>>>>> from the musician Volochinov related to
>>>>>> music itself, semiotics of music and so
>>>>>> on?
>>>>>> There are some musicians in Brazil at Unicamp interested in
>>>>>> understand musical
>>>>>> genres aided by bakhtinian theoretical framework, and I had the
>>>>>> notice that Volochinov was the musician of Bakhtin's
>>>>>> Circle...
>>>>>> Can you confirm this information to me
>>>>>> and give me some biographical suggestions?
>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>> Thank you very much, one more time. Achilles...
>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>> To:;
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:37:39 -0600
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Access to articles and discussion
>>>>>>> CC:
>>>>>>> Hi -- I think that at just about every sociocultural-related
>>>>>>> conference I
>>>>>> have been to, someone I've been talking with says that she reads
>>>>>> XMCA but
>>>>>> never speaks up. These are always people who are doing good work
>>>>>> and have
>>>>>> something that needs to be heard. Andy's right, Mike does the job
>>>>>> of picking
>>>>>> up the new voices. It's something we should each make an effort to
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>> Helena
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>> From: []
>>>>>>> On Behalf
>>>>>> Of Andy Blunden []
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 5:30 PM
>>>>>>> To: Tamara Ball
>>>>>>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Access to articles and discussion
>>>>>>> Thanks Tamara.
>>>>>>> Yes, I think the acknowledgment of new voices, when they
>>>>>>> speak, is vital. Mike always does this, but I think it is
>>>>>>> quite wrong for the rest of us to just leave that role to
>>>>>>> Mike, who has enough to do. So, thanks!
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>> Tamara Ball wrote:
>>>>>>>> My humble suggestion is this:
>>>>>>>> that those of you more experienced and comfortable with the XMCA
>>>>>>>> discussion forum keep vigilant watch for new voices whenever
>>>>>>>> they do
>>>>>>>> emerge and then respond. Use the response also as a space for your
>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> assertion, to be sure(perhaps one you would have made anyway), but
>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> the notation of "re:" as the slightest acknowledgment of
>>>>>> that new voice
>>>>>>>> is alluring and validating. Any thoughtful response will do -
>>>>>>>> but in
>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> opinion, better if it is not only "sweet", encouraging or
>>>>>> gentle but
>>>>>>>> rather truly responsive and generative. In my own novice
>>>>>>>> experience,
>>>>>>>> intimidation is linked to a feeling of irrelevance which comes with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> frayed edges of a thread that is not continued in some way or
>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>> As Andy suggests, workload is always an issue of course, but I do
>>>>>>>> understand that there are ways that participation in the
>>>>>>>> parlance of
>>>>>>>> this forum can actually *decrease* workload by creatively and
>>>>>>>> expeditiously negotiating ideas or problems central to the work
>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> us has in front of us.
>>>>>>>> For instance I am in heat of writing a grant proposal that I hope
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> lead to a multi-year post-doc position that will allow me to expand
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> work I am already involved with at the Center for Adaptive
>>>>>>>> Optics (
>>>>>>>> electro-engineering, astronomy and optometry research center
>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>> strong education component). I can imagine exploring more powerful
>>>>>> ways
>>>>>>>> to shape the structure of that work through conversations here that
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> also linked to the more central debates at hand.
>>>>>>>> Tamara
>>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2008, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Well I'm not one of those who vote and don't discuss but
>>>>>> I am willing
>>>>>>>>> to have a guess at issues here, and maybe people will be provoked
>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>> correcting me?
>>>>>>>>> I have had brief discussions with several people either offline
>>>>>> or via
>>>>>>>>> FaceBook who have expressed an interest in xmca discussions but
>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>> (basically) they are not clever enough to contribute. Having been
>>>>>>>>> assured that this is absolutely not the case, they later go on to
>>>>>>>>> become contributors. For some, it is that fear of speaking up and
>>>>>>>>> maybe getting their heads bitten off. In other cases, I am sure,
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>>> a simple matter of the insanity of academic workloads already
>>>>>> driving
>>>>>>>>> people to the edge.
>>>>>>>>> I have racked my brain and failed to come up with a viable means
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> resolving this, other than being civil and respectful in
>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>>>> When I asked about Bobath, someone who had never spoken before
>>>>>> spoke
>>>>>>>>> up saying "At last something I feel qualified to speak
>>>>>> on." Likewise,
>>>>>>>>> when I asked for help for my brother with his daughter's
>>>>>> maths
>>>>>>>>> problems, loads of really helpful and knowledgeable people spoke
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>>> But the general debate, people seem to find intimidating. And
>>>>>> yet, in
>>>>>>>>> my experience, unjustifiably so.
>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>> Mike Cole wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I fear that at present the article to be made available free
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>> at Taylor and Francis
>>>>>>>>>> has not been released. The ever-lengthening duration of
>>>>>> Thanksgiving
>>>>>>>>>> holiday
>>>>>>>>>> has probably not
>>>>>>>>>> helped matters. Consequently, many, probabaly most, members
>>>>>> of xmca
>>>>>>>>>> do not
>>>>>>>>>> have access to the
>>>>>>>>>> article in question by Stetsenko and Sawchuk. We are working
>>>>>> on it.
>>>>>>>>>> The issue of discussion of article in MCA that are not made
>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>>>> is even more difficult and we
>>>>>>>>>> are working on that too. We have a situation where often two
>>>>>> or more
>>>>>>>>>> articles are ones that people want
>>>>>>>>>> to discuss but we are unlikely to get T&F to offer the
>>>>>> journal for
>>>>>>>>>> free. So
>>>>>>>>>> we are discussing with them
>>>>>>>>>> the cost of electronic versions so that acces to people
>>>>>> without the
>>>>>>>>>> financial means to get access can
>>>>>>>>>> be handled in a viable way.
>>>>>>>>>> Simultaneously, I would not that more than 30 people voted to
>>>>>> discuss the
>>>>>>>>>> Sanino article, but to date, very
>>>>>>>>>> few people have availed themselves of the opportunity they
>>>>>> obtained
>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>> group by their votes. I take
>>>>>>>>>> this to be a problem and would appreciate suggestions for
>>>>>> making XMCA
>>>>>>>>>> a more
>>>>>>>>>> multi-voiced forum for
>>>>>>>>>> discussion. Might the overwhelming majority of people who
>>>>>> voted for
>>>>>>>>>> discussion of this article but who have
>>>>>>>>>> failed to comment on it help me and others understand what is
>>>>>> a foot.
>>>>>>>>>> Is it
>>>>>>>>>> amplification or amputation, perhaps some productive
>>>>>> transformation,
>>>>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>>>> The academic semester/quarter draws to a close in the United
>>>>>> States. The
>>>>>>>>>> stock market is open in Asia. The people of Mumbai, Peshewar,
>>>>>> Ramadi,
>>>>>>>>>> Eastern Congo, flood raviged Brazil and elsewhere bury their
>>>>>> dead.
>>>>>>>>>> The polar
>>>>>>>>>> bears, I hear, are enjoying a cool winter, but word is sparse
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> that part
>>>>>>>>>> of the world. The future beckons. What is that she is holding
>>>>>> in her
>>>>>>>>>> hand?
>>>>>>>>>> Or is it behind our backs?
>>>>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Andy Blunden +61 3 9380 9435 Skype
>>>>>>>>> andy.blunden
>>>>>>>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Andy Blunden +61 3 9380 9435
>>>>>>> Skype andy.blunden
>>>>>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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Received on Wed Dec 3 06:01:49 2008

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