RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)

From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari who-is-at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed Nov 12 2008 - 10:31:26 PST

Michalis,

Thank you very much...

These informations allow to think that quote Trotsky in this context
turns something undesirable from official political point of view, despite
Vygotsky's works were wrote maybe when there was not such restriction
so clearly defined... But publication of Pedagogical Psychology in 1926
was carried on even so (!) It's interesting this possibility of non-official
publications at that time. How did Soviet State administrate this alternative
publisher houses? Was not there any kind of control or restriction to it too?
With economic matters centralized, how can an relatively autonomous
publishing busyness survive at this social context, with editorial guidelines
not strictly aligned with the Conference of the Communist Party? There
was cues of not yet "unidimensional" society until this date? Voices of
some kind of "resistance"? Or this though of mine sounds too romantic?
Please, help me to think better.

About Vygotsky and Nietzsche, I wait more notices. The few impressions
that I had, until now, were of a critical position by the first about the second...
Mostly at "Defectology" and "Socialist alteration of man"... But my memory
can be wrong about these references too, I read some years ago... The socialist
"new man" versus the nietzschean "beyond-the-man" (Übermensch)? Mikhail
Bakhtin, by his turn, in "Philosophy of Act" criticized Nietzsche about his "vitalism".
I will wait more notices, but if you can tell us more about, I will be thankful
as well.

Thank you, once more.
Achilles.

> From: michalis.kontopodis@staff.hu-berlin.de
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)
> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:00:34 +0100
>
> I think I can contribute to this discussion:
>
> there is a German Vygotsky scholar, Peter Keiler who did extensive
> research and in his book:
>
> http://www.amazon.de/Lev-Vygotskij-Leben-Psychologie-Einf%fchrung/dp/3407221266/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226475718&sr=8-1
>
> sees a Nietzschean influence on Vygotsky and examines the use of
> citations of Trotsky in the Psychology of Art.
>
> Keiler claims that it was because of these ideological influences that
> the Psychology of Art which was initially accepted for publication,
> was not published after Trotsky's views were officialy rejected
> (Conference of the Communist Party in 1925). It was also because of
> this reason that Vygotsky's book Educational Psychology was not
> published with the State Publisher in 1924/1925 but with the Publisher
> 'Workers of Education' in 1926 (I am not sure about the translation of
> the names of the Publishers and I do not have the originals now).
>
> I am writing about these issues and I think Veresov has done also work
> about this issue in English, so for sure there is/will be some more
> material in the future for the English-speaking audience.
>
> with friendly regards,
>
> Michalis Kontopodis
>
> research associate
> humboldt university berlin
> tel.: +49 (0) 30 2093 3716
> fax.: +49 (0) 30 2093 3739
> http://www.csal.de
> http://www.iscar.org/de/culthistanthpsy/
>
> On 12.11.2008, at 00:24, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
>
> >
> > David,
> >
> > Thank you very much...
> >
> > I have suspected that was not only an opportunistic relation,
> > but you give us many more reasons to confirm my suspects...
> > Despite somebody that had that kind of only strictly political
> > acceptance goals, Trotsky was then the obvious reference to
> > quote too - and this I didn't knew until your explanation. Well,
> > all we are real persons, with our contradictions, including
> > moral and political dilemmas - but, even so, I resist to wonder
> > Vygotsky's intentions only in therms of simple conveniences or
> > blind following of a moment trend or fashion. I don't know...
> > All we are human, "nothing of human will be strange to us"...
> > But if you said:
> >
> > "I think the real affinity between Trotsky and Vygotsky (and even
> > more,
> >
> > between Trotsky and Luria) is to be found a little deeper. It's not
> >
> > something that he would have left on the surface, and even if he had,
> >
> > it would have been expunged for obvious reasons."
> >
> > And then you empower my feeling that there was something
> > beyond convenience in that dialog.
> >
> > Thank you, again.
> > Achilles
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:50:48 -0800
> >> From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>
> >> Dear Achilles:
> >>
> >> I think everybody is right all around. The problem is that Vygotsky
> >> was not a party member, and the Bolshevik Party tended to keep its
> >> disagreements to itself until fairly late. Remember that although
> >> Pedagogical Psychology was publishedi n 1926, most of it was
> >> written earlier for teaching purposes.
> >>
> >> By 1926, Lenin was dead, and Trotsky was already in opposition.
> >> Stalin, however, was not well known outside the party; he'd been
> >> not particularly distinguished editor of Pravda, and written (with
> >> Lenin's help) a book on the nationalities question, but that was
> >> about it.
> >>
> >> Trotsky, on the other hand, was extremely well known as the man who
> >> had led the first unsuccessful Soviet in 1905, written prolifically
> >> on art, literature, science, and the history he had helped to make.
> >> Popularly, he was the man perceived to have almost single-handedly
> >> created the Red Army and saved the USSR during the civil war. He
> >> was the obvious person to quote, particularly if you were Jewish,
> >> kind of intellectual, and inclinded to cross-disciplinary
> >> intellectual interests.
> >>
> >> I think the real affinity between Trotsky and Vygotsky (and even
> >> more, between Trotsky and Luria) is to be found a little deeper.
> >> It's not something that he would have left on the surface, and even
> >> if he had, it would have been expunged for obvious reasons.
> >>
> >> Nevertheless, it's really there, particularly in the idea of
> >> permanent revolution, where development consists not of the Stalin
> >> like mechanical replication of stages, but in the Trotsky like
> >> compression of stages, where "the first shall be last" and the
> >> "rock that was despised by the builders shall be the cornerstone".
> >>
> >> David Kellogg
> >> Seoul National University of Education
> >> .
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: [xmca] Vygotsky and Trotsky (question)
> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 2:39 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> Greetings,
> >>
> >> It´s only a simple question,
> >>
> >> Alex Kozulin (1990, Vygotsky: a biography of ideas) in his chapter
> >> about
> >> "Pedagogical Psychology", see this book almost like a non-vygotskyan
> >> work.
> >> I will not touch the problem of pavlovian trends of Vygotsky at
> >> this time.
> >> But, about Trotsky, Kozulin think that Vygotsky quotes him only as
> >> a political
> >> mean to be accepted in official marxist scene of the time, and
> >> nothing really
> >> conceptually relevant. But, I had asked for myself, since 1994 when
> >> I have
> >> read Kozulin excellent book: why then Trotsky? Why not Lenin or
> >> Stalin him-
> >> self. Is not Pedagogical psychology a book published at 1926? Tom
> >> Bottomore
> >> said that since 1923, Trotsky was leading opposition movements
> >> against so-
> >> viet bureaucracy, what culminate with his expulsion from USSR in
> >> 1929 by
> >> Stalin. Many years after read Kozulin's book, Vygostky's Pedagogical
> >> Psycho-
> >> logy was published in Portuguese... I don't know exactly what
> >> happens after
> >> with his political trends, but I feel that his quotations seems to
> >> be not so
> >> artificial, nor conveniently "official".
> >>
> >> What do you think about?
> >>
> >> Thank you, very much. It's only to share a simple historical doubt.
> >>
> >> Best wishes.
> >> Achilles
> >>
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Received on Wed Nov 12 10:32:23 2008

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