Re: [xmca] Re: Kant and the Strange Situation

I stand by what I said David. I don't have the same
translation as you so I am having trouble following. But do
you see the table of categories? Things like "plurality" and
"possibility" and so on. He believes that these are "built
in" so to speak, like Chomsky's universal grammar.

Andy

David Kellogg wrote:
> It's right here, Andy. First Division, Book II, Chapter 1, the
> Schematism of the Pure Concepts of Understanding:
>
> "For we have there seen that conceptions are quite impossible, and
> utterly without signification, unless either to them, or at least to the
> elements of which they consist, an object be given; and that,
> consequently, they cannot possibly apply to objects as things in
> themselves without regard to the question whether and how these may be
> given to us; and, further, that the only manner in which objects can be
> given to us is by means of the modification of our sensibility; and,
> finally, that pure /a priori/ conceptions, in addition to the function
> of the understanding in the category, must contain /a priori/ formal
> conditions of sensibility (of the internal sense, namely), which again
> contain the general condition under which alone the category can be
> applied to any object. This formal and pure condition of sensibility, to
> which the conception of the understanding is restricted in its
> employment, we shall name the schema of the conception of the
> understanding, and the procedure of the understanding with these
> schemata we shall call the schematism of the pure understanding."
>
> Then he gives a laundry list of different schemata.
>
> I mean "Critique of Reason" as opposed to the Critique of Judgement and
> the Critique of Practice. Actually, I'm a lot more familiar with the
> latter two (aesthetics and morals).
>
> I'm still struggling with the Logic! Your annotated version is good, but
> I need lots of help.
>
> dk
>
> --- On *Fri, 10/24/08, Andy Blunden /<ablunden@mira.net>/* wrote:
>
> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: the Strange Situation
> To: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 8:26 PM
>
> You sound like you know what you're saying David. Can you
> help me find the text. I have only
> http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/kant/reason/critique-of-pure-reason.htm
> Is this the same work? I only know Critique of Pure Reason
> and Critique of Practical Reason. I don't know "Critique of
> Reason."
>
> Andy
>
> David Kellogg wrote:
> > Andy:
> >
> > Kant does speak of schemata as reflections in the mind "by
> modification
> > of our sensibility" of unknowable things in themselves. This is where
> he
> > brings in the triangle example so beloved by Chomsky,
> >
> > See "Critique of Reason", Transcendental doctrine of judgement,
> Chapter
> > 1, section 1. Kant, I (1965) Critique of Pure Reason. New York:
> > MacMillan.p. 182.
> >
> > See also: "Transition from Sensory-Motor Schemas to Conceptual
> Schemas"
> > in Piaget, J. (1961) Play, Imitation and Dreams (Norton), pp. 215-244.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> > --- On *Fri, 10/24/08, Andy Blunden /<ablunden@mira.net>/* wrote:
> >
> > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: the Strange Situation
> > To: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 7:16 PM
> >
> > David, I think you are doing a disservice to Kant here. For
> > Kant there cannot really be "reflections" of
> > things-in-themselves. Appearances are constructs.
> >
> > If Piaget talks about schemata, then he is indeed, like
> > Chomsky, a Kantian, but as I understand it, "schemata"
> > refers to the categories which Kant presumed were accessible
> > to a faculty of Reason, which then enabled sensible forms to
> > be extracted from sense data via the faculty of Intuition.
> > According to Hegel and Marx and Vygotsky, the categories of
> > reason are acquired via practical activity with other people.
> >
> > But the "thing in itself" is, for Kant, beyond perception.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > David Kellogg wrote:
> > > Dear Paula:
> > >
> > > (For whatever reason, I'm afraid the label's sticking.
> "The
> > Strange Situation" is, like a working class hero, something to
> be. Meaning,
> > something that is to become.)
> > >
> > > I'm going to try to use Hegel's "Logic" to make
> sense of
> > the categories we find in your DVD and also in Chapter Five. But
> I've tried
> > to read the Logic several times myself and failed each time.
> > >
> > > So I'm not actually going to use the "Logic"
> directly, but
> > instead take a very schematic understanding of it from an article on
> the logic
> > of 19th century realist novels. (Brown, M. [1981] "The Logic of
> Realism: A
> > Hegelian Approach", PMLA 96/2, 224-241). This puts me in good
> company; Andy
> > says that LSV mostly gets his Hegel from other sources too (probably
> the
> > Philosophical Notebooks of Lenin).
> > >
> > > Early on in Thinking and Speech, LSV pours scorn on Piaget's
> > declaration of independence from philosophy and says "the lack of
> a
> > philosophy is itself a very definite philosophy". But
> Piaget's
> > non-philosophical philosophy is not simply raw empiricism; it's a
> form of
> > neo-Kantianism.
> > >
> > > That's why LSV is careful to highlight wherever Piaget talks
> about
> > "schemata", Kantian reflections of unknowable "things
> in
> > themselves". It's also why he uses the image of social
> thinking simply
> > "squeezing out" the egocentric thinking of the child; LSV is
> rejecting
> > the neo-Kantian idea that there are separate faculties of reason and
> judgement.
> > >
> > > So what's the alternative to Kantian reflections of things in
> > themselves? Hegel gives us three distinct stages in the unfolding of
> an idea:
> > "for itself", "for others", and "for
> oneself". But
> > in some ways the ways in which these stages are linked are more
> important than
> > the way they are distinct.
> > >
> > > First of all, there is "contingency", which he
> subtitles:
> > "formal reality, possibility, necessity". Now, in this stage
> stuff has
> > no "necessary" existence; it just appears as random things,
> or heaps.
> > That's why Hegel says it has the "form" of reality,
> rather than
> > its truth.
> > >
> > > But even here, as Hegel says, "everything is through its
> other what
> > it is itself". There is a contrast between the object and the
> environment,
> > and that contrast is something made by the child as the child takes
> objects and
> > puts them into heaps. The criterion of selection is a non-criterion;
> the child
> > selects "for (the object) itself".
> > >
> > > Now suppose the child takes this same logic, the logic of the
> heap, and
> > applies it to the individual object. By this logic, the object appears
> as a
> > "heap" of traits, facets, or aspects, each one utterly
> unconnected
> > with the others. An object is a random heap of qualities.
> > >
> > > But the independence of one quality from another is actually a
> kind of
> > relationship, although a negative one. If a block is part of this
> heap, then it
> > is not part of that one. and if an object is yellow, then it is not
> blue. The
> > point is that reality is something that is directed outwards; the
> reality of a
> > heap is directed towards other heaps, the reality of an object is
> something
> > directed towards other objects, and the reality of a facet is directed
> towards
> > other facets.
> > >
> > > Because the reality of a facet is directed towards other facets,
> it can be
> > contrasted, and even chained, according to likeness, or according to
> partial
> > similarity, or according to cause and effect. That's what creates
> the
> > various types of complexes, including the chain complex.
> > >
> > > Of course, identifying relationships (resemblance, causality,
> > complementarity, even adversativity) is also a way of isolating them.
> And
> > isolating relationships always involves not only an element of
> relativeness but
> > even an element of arbitrariness. We see a lot of this in our data.
> > >
> > > But we also see that as the relationships are isolated, the
> arbitrary
> > elements and irrelevant decisions are gradually eliminated. Hegel says
> that in
> > the third stage of the unfolding of the idea, all the randomness is
> absorbed and
> > objects are now fully determinate.
> > >
> > > LSV takes Piaget to task for not considering causality to be
> objective;
> > for asserting that the causality of science is as egocentric and
> relative as
> > that of the child. For LSV, this is really a type of complexive
> thinking.
> > Thinking of "real reality", that is, the reality of groups
> and chains,
> > and complexes, is not the final stage any more than thinking of heaps
> was.
> > >
> > > Scientific causality is, for LSV, a higher form of causality; it
> > corresponds to absolute necessity, where there is no longer
> heterogeneity or
> > randomness in the relation or in the object. I think this is where he
> sees
> > concepts--true concepts--coming into existence.
> > >
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ +61 3 9380 9435
> > Skype andy.blunden
> > Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
> > http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ +61 3 9380 9435
> Skype andy.blunden
> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>
>
>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ +61 3 9380 9435 
Skype andy.blunden
Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
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