RE: [xmca] RE: mental health

Michael

I agree... if decision making is in doubt all the time. But I wonder
how can decision making process originate from masterring
semiotic devices, about its historical-cultural genesis.
There is no social-cultural roots for mental diseases too?
About "person", your critical comment is correct too. But
I was wondering a person concept like Vygotsky's one in
"Concrete human psychology"... My quotation of Puzirey
was a note of him to this Vygotsky's handwriting... A person
as a function of social relations... social personality as
a drama of social roles transposed to an indidividual. The
social meanings of a illness, like it is aproprieted by a person
in his/her experience, would be more central than the illness
itself. Devellopment itself, Devellopment for others, Develloment
for oneself. But its only a vague hypothesis...

Thank you, again.

Achilles
Umuarama, July 14, 2008

> From: mglevykh@telus.net
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:14:32 -0700
>
> You are welcome, Achilles! The questions you pose are very important and
> complex. Since "what is important is...what man (person) is sick with this
> disease," it seems that it is up to the individual personality to either
> accept the influence of the society and (in most cases) compensate and
> develop, or reject. However, when the very mechanism of decision making is
> in doubt (as can be found among schizophrenics), it is also doubtful as to
> which way the development of such personality will proceed.
>
> Good luck with your research!
>
> Cheers,
> Michael.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:44 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
>
>
> Michael,I must (re)read Vygotsky's texts that I have here, about
> schizophrenia.I find only 2 texts. "Thinking in Schizophrenia" (1931)
> (published in VygotskyReader) and "The psychology of schizophrenia" (1933)
> (published inSoviet Psychology, 1987, p.72-77)... I don't know yet about
> this problemof "normal" personality (leachnost)... Until now I was thinking
> in somethinglike Puzirei's interpretation: “It is important, as
> it formulates its basic thought T. Mann, to know not
> with what illness man (person) is sick, but - what man (person) is sick
> with this disease.”Then, I wondered that person, and social personality was
> a more complextotality than the illness itself. That illness only can be
> understood in itsrelation with more complex entire dynamic-structural sistem
> of higher mentalfuntions, related to consciousness, sense, personality, and
> world view.If I am a schizophrenic person, maybe I can´t let to be
> schizophrenic, but to be schizophrenic is not all that I am as a person,
> socially constructed...I´m even a father, a son, a worker, a student, have
> my passions, feelings...I think that we can't be over-otimistic. But, being
> realistic, can we helpa schizophrenic/bipolar/etc person to be, even so, a
> healthful person,even not all the time? How much (and essentialy by what
> ways) social/semiotic relations can contribute in the genesis of
> functional/dysfunctional arrange of psychic systems of person who has such
> diseases? I don´t know...I had associated personality with sense (smisl) and
> world view (mirovozrenie). Then I supposed that to a person can to have a
> personality, necessarily HMF have to emerges. A "schizophrenic personality"
> would be, in my way to think, a historical-cultural formation, overall. This
> doesn't means forget the dialetic relations between neurofunctional
> substract of mental fuctions and the semiotic (extra-cortical) mediation
> divices, culturally provided. I´m confuse in my associations. I will try to
> think better. Thank you very much.Achilles,Umuarama, July 13, 2008.
>
>
>
> > From: mglevykh@telus.net
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:25:57 -0700
> >
> > Achilles,
> >
> > Although being quite often over-optimistic, talking about personality,
> > Vygotsky was convinced that we cannot develop "normal" leachnost in a
> > post-schizophrenic person. Our goal is to facilitate development of a
> > "schizophrenic" leachnost - whatever it might mean.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michael.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:43 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> >
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > I understand, but I ask you: it can allow space for higher mental
> funcitons
> > by stoping biochemical elementary process that colapses intire system of
> > psychic funtions, but it can't strictly generate meaninful/semantic
> process
> > that
> > constitute consciousness ideological organization, personality structure
> and
> > world view. Can it? Maybe the answer seems to be obvious... But, if I take
> > Lithium, Clorpromazina and Sertralina, my sleep and anxiety turns more
> > controlable, and my mood more euthimic, and so on, then it allow space
> > for any kind of productive imagination and thinking, that can actually
> > occurs
> > or not... but my entire thinking system of higher mental funtions seems to
> > be
> > organized by other semantic process too, socially, culturally generated -
> > Then I agree that we need a "a balance between attending to the
> > neuroatypical
> > issues (autism, bipolar disorder, etc.) and attending to what's more
> > strictly
> > on the outside (other people's attitudes, the social arrangement of
> material
> >
> > surroundings that channel thinking about difference--see, e.g.,
> > accommodations for
> > physically handicapped people)." Even so, my curiosity is too about the
> > possibility of generate social-cultural semiotic resources to promote
> > semantic
> > process that (re)organizes intire personality, consciousness,
> > dinamic-structural
> > sistems, in order to people's (maybe) better using of highter mental
> > functions
> > that medications can allow space for. Five years of psychoanalisys was not
> > very productive to me, for instance, I wonder if could be any third way
> > beyond
> > mentalistic and naturalistic aproachs in psychoterapy as well as in
> general
> > psychology and in educational psychology researchs and social practices.
> > But, I'm just thinking by associations, I have to study very much - to
> read,
> > to
> >
> > maintain atentional focus, motivation, an so on. Valsiner and Van der
> Veer's
> >
> > claim, that Vygotsky in practice worked more in clinical setting, makes me
>
> > wonder: how he actually did this? Why we don't have much information about
> > this practice?
> > ...
> > Thank you very much.
> > Achilles,
> > Umuarama, July 13, 2008.
> >
> > > From: smago@uga.edu
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:43:35 -0400
> > >
> > > My sense is that medications can allow space for higher mental
> functions,
> > > which might otherwise be choked off by panic attacks and other
> responses.
> > >
> > > Peter Smagorinsky
> > > The University of Georgia
> > > 125 Aderhold Hall
> > > Athens, GA 30602
> > > smago@uga.edu/phone:706-542-4507
> > > http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:05 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter, thank you, very much.
> > >
> > > I strongly agree with your position, not only agree but
> > > I'm learning a lot with you. I wonder that medication can not
> > > directlly affect highter mental funtions, not in semantic/
> > > ideologic organization of conciousness. I agree with
> > > Volochinov/Bakhtin's postition (in his wor "Freudism")
> > > that human conflicts are ideological/not strictly biological
> > > in its constitution...
> > > Maybe I was remarking the need to socially overcome "sad
> > > passions", more than the really essential need to socially
> > > enpower "glad passions"... (in spnozian terms). There is
> > > no the first process without the second one. I know.
> > > I only don´t know how yet. Not exactly. I belive that
> > > many people alread have this know-how. I wish to learn...
> > > I can try. Now I have important references here, then
> > > I must organize myself. =)
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Oh. Please. I couldn't access the file... When I try, apears
> > > this message:
> > > You don't have permission to access
> > > /hold5yr/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd.pdf on this
> > > server
> > > What can I do?
> > >
> > > Best, Achilles
> > > Umuarama, July, 12 2008.
> > >
> > > > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE:
> > > mental health> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:53 -0400> > Achilles, again
> I
> > > speak largely from experience here. I think that there's a> balance
> > between
> > > attending to the neuroatypical issues (autism, bipolar> disorder, etc.)
> > and
> > > attending to what's more strictly on the outside (other> people's
> > attitudes,
> > > the social arrangement of material surroundings that> channel thinking
> > about
> > > difference--see, e.g., accommodations for physically> handicapped
> people).
> > >
> > > > What we argue in the book excerpt, and what Leslie argues, is that
> it's>
> > > vitally important to create mediational contexts that both contribute to
> > > new> settings (when there are wheelchair ramps, being wheelchair-bound
> > > appears to> all to be less of a handicap) and new ways for people to
> think
> > > about> themselves; or as some research suggests (see Damasio in our
> review
> > > below),> new ways for the brain to encode perceptions.> > This is not to
> > say
> > > that some conditions do not require additional attention.> I take a
> > > medication for anxiety, and many people I know take antipsychotics,>
> > > depression medications, and so on. Undoubtedly there's some
> > > overprescription> of such meds, but many of us are glad to have the
> > option.>
> > > > One thing seems certain: We need more research in this area, so I
> > > strongly> encourage you to extend your investigation! Best,Peter> > > >
> > > -----Original Message-----> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On> Behalf Of Achilles Delari
> Junior>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 7:36 PM> To: eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity>
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health> > > Thank you, very much
> Peter...>
> > >
> > > "Cook (2004) argues that relying simply on medication and counseling >
> is
> > > inadequate; that a broader environmental change that enables an >
> > > understanding and tolerance of difference, and gives young people >
> tools
> > > for managing their difference, is essential to helping young people >
> > > construct positive lives for themselves and in turn contribute to a more
> >
> > > humane society."> > It's a beautiful and deep contribution. I really
> agree
> > > with this> orientation. > But, let me ask you: don’t you think that
> could
> > > exist a subtle distinction > between (a) “tolerance of difference
> related
> > to
> > > inclusive education” and > (b) “(self)tolerance of mental pain”? I think
> > > about my own experience: > there are several moments in which I don't
> only
> > > accept my different > (dysfunctional) process, but desire
> overcome/master
> > > it... There are four > hyperbolic semiotic process that I recognize (and
> > > struggle with) in BAD > (bipolar affective disorder):
> > > {paranoia<->megalomania} (mania) X > (depression)
> {self-moralist<->suicide
> > > ideation}. And I know that if social > others learn to comprehend and
> > accept
> > > these different semiotic ways of> means world and my own experience,
> > > changing "social situation" by> inter-mental mediation, my own personal
> > > sense for this process can be > transformed. But, even so, a paranoid
> > > delirium not always can be only > accepted. If we could understand
> > > cultural-historical genetical roots of > mental pain, can we do
> something
> > to
> > > not only accept it, but even > overcome/replace its dysfunctional
> > > social/personal consequences?> Here, ariseesthe problem of
> > “psykhotekhnika”
> > > again, an approach that > not only explains psychic process as function
> of
> > > social relations, but> socially > (and deliberately) constructs it too…
> >
> > >
> > > Personally talking, seems to be not too easy to me to engage myself> in
> > > social relations that could actually produce important functional > (and
> > > structural-dynamical) changes in my life - even more, since I > haven’t
> > > control about multiple social and biological determinations.> Things
> seems
> > > turns better or worse more in a casual than a determinist > way. But, by
> > > epistemological principles and with an emotional need to hope,> I know
> > that
> > > social formation of mind is open to co-construction/>
> > > inter-constitution/co-existence (sobytie)… Along the years, Vygotsky’s>
> > > claims > (to create new psychology and new means to make people’s life
> > > better) > make me take this problem of psychology applied to mental
> health
> > > as a kind> of personal and professional challenge to my own mental
> > > (cognitive/> affective) > resources… (but sorry about my "ecogentric
> > > language" here, righ now, i will> control me better in future)> > Oh,
> > sure.
> > > One more operational question. Let me ask: is this “dissertation > of
> > Leslie
> > > Cook” (“who looked at young women with depressive disorders > and the
> > > mediational means they use to make sense of their lives”) > available in
> > any
> > > digital midia?> > Thank you very much, for this opportunity of
> > > inter-constitution. I must > organize my reading tasks now, there are
> very
> > > important contributions of all> > you here.> > Achilles> Umuarama, July,
> > 11
> > > 2008.> > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE:
> [xmca]
> > > RE:> mental health> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:24:52 -0400> > Achilles
> > asks:
> > > > Can> we really creat semiotical means to produce better mental health
> to
> > > people?> Or this kind of a goal is a mistake like possible Vygotsky´s or
> > > perhaps some> Vygotsky's followers' mistakes about 'social
> engeneering'?>
> > >
> > > I would say> YES to the first question. I'll take a shortcut and paste
> > > something in below> from a book I've coauthored about The Discourse of
> > > Character Education> (Erlbaum, 2005, with Joel Taxel). It draws on the
> > > dissertation of Leslie> Cook, who looked at young women with depressive
> > > disorders and the> mediational means they use to make sense of their
> > lives.
> > > My apologies for> the length of the following excerpt.> > > Mental
> Health
> > > and Character> Education> We have briefly expressed our concern that the
> > > issue of mental> health is virtually absent from discussions about
> > character
> > > education. Yet> many students who come to school with a mental health
> > > problems are treated> as discipline problems of the sort measured as
> > indexes
> > > of low character in> the proposals we have studied. We believe that it
> is
> > > important for any> character education initiative to recognize and
> account
> > > for mental health in> its conception of good character, both for those
> > with
> > > nonnormative makeups> and those with whom they interact.> Mental health
> is
> > > the elephant in the> character education closet. The World Health
> > > Organization (2001) reports> that about 7.5 million children in the U.
> > > S.—12% of all children under> 18—have mental disorders, nearly half of
> > which
> > > lead to serious disability.> Jamison (1997) found that 20% of high
> school
> > > students had seriously> considered committing suicide during the year
> > prior
> > > to his study, with most> having drawn up a suicide plan; suicide is the
> #3
> > > cause of death of> teenagers between 15 and 19 years of age, often
> > following
> > > from a depressive> disorder. Yet most parents and teachers feel that
> > mental
> > > health issues are> poorly addressed in schools (Dowling & Pound, 1994;
> > > Rappaport & Carolla,> 1999), many teachers have little understanding of
> > how
> > > to recognize or> respond to students with mental health problems
> (Madison,
> > > 1996), and only> recently has mental health been identified as a reason
> to
> > > develop an> Individual Education Plan (IEP) for students.> These
> > widespread>
> > > misunderstandings have resulted in many such students being regarded as>
> > > troublesome or lacking character in schools. Yet, as reporter Anne Imse>
> > > (1999) wrote following the Columbine school shooting tragedy, > Even
> > teens>
> > > as dangerously troubled as Eric Harris stand a good chance of slipping>
> > > through the cracks in Jefferson County and across Colorado, failing to
> > get>
> > > badly needed mental health care. There are serious roadblocks to
> getting>
> > > treatment for sick kids [including]> • State prohibitions against law>
> > > enforcement agencies telling schools about a problem kid unless there's
> a>
> > > conviction; > • Schools worrying about being saddled with psychiatric
> > bills>
> > > if they recommend treatment, or even being sued; > • Not enough money>
> > > earmarked for counselors and counseling for the state's youth. > So,
> even>
> > > though Jefferson County school officials have become more sensitive to
> > > kids'> mental states . . . they remain hamstrung about arranging
> > treatment.
> > > "We> have no place to go with them," said Clark Bencomo, a counselor at
> > > Green> Mountain High School. "All we can do is suspend or expel." "We
> are>
> > > oftentimes reduced to putting a kid in a place where they're safe, but
> > it's>
> > > not the right program," added Kay Cessna, intervention services director
> > > for> Jefferson County schools. "There are not enough places." [One
> parent
> > of
> > > a> child with disabilities complained], "They don't have the time, the>
> > > manpower, and they don't get it.">
> > > (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0516ment2.shtml) > Cook
> > > (2004)> finds this problem occurring in other states as well, reporting
> > > that> students with mental health problems are often put in special
> > > education> programs or disciplined when they act out, either as a
> > > consequence of their> makeup (e.g., a child with Tourette’s syndrome’s
> > > involuntary profanity) or> in response to the taunting they face from
> > their
> > > peers.> Yet a mental health> professional would surely argue that the
> > > problem is not a lack of character> and the solution is not to punish
> > > students with mental health problems.> Rather, a broader understanding
> of
> > > mental health among students and> faculty—the sort of attention to
> climate
> > > we found in the states from the> Upper Midwest—would contribute to a
> more
> > > sympathetic and less punitive> environment for such students in school.
> > > Indeed, Damasio (1994) argues in> his somatic-marker theory against the
> > > classic Cartesian mind/body binary,> instead positing that brain and
> body
> > > are integrally related not just to one> another but to the environment.
> A
> > > change in the environment, he finds, may> contribute to changes in how a
> > > person processes new information (cf. Luria,> 1979; Pert, 1997); that
> is,
> > in
> > > response to developments in the surroundings,> the brain will encode
> > > perceptions in new kinds of ways. > Conceivably, then,> changes in
> school
> > > climate can contribute to the emotional well-being of> students whose
> > mental
> > > makeup falls outside the normal range. The therapy for> such students is
> > > still widely debated. While medication and counseling have> benefited
> many
> > > with nonnormative makeups in their relationships with others,> the
> medical
> > > model has been criticized because it assumes that a normative> mental
> > state
> > > is best for all. This criticism frequently comes up in debates> about
> > > whether medications for Attention Deficit Disorder are prescribed too>
> > often
> > > for any students who have difficulty focusing in school. Some argue>
> that
> > > prescribing such medications is designed more to increase the comfort>
> > > levels of those around such students than to help those students>
> > > themselves.> The jury is still out concerning the question of whether
> > > people> with such diagnoses are sick and in need of medicine. Cook
> (2004)
> > > argues> that relying simply on medication and counseling is inadequate;
> > that
> > > a> broader environmental change that enables an understanding and
> > tolerance
> > > of> difference, and gives young people tools for managing their
> > difference,
> > > is> essential to helping young people construct positive lives for
> > > themselves> and in turn contribute to a more humane society. Taking a
> > > punitive approach> to difference, she argues, is regressive and only
> makes
> > > life more fragile> for those characterized as different and more
> > emotionally
> > > and cognitively> unhealthy for those who surround them.> >>
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Received on Sun Jul 13 20:32 PDT 2008