Re: [xmca] Vygotsky-text-context-thinking

O

Dearest Cathrene,
We are in Berkeley, and I love the vegetation, the hills,
the view and all the fruit. I still have some
friends here and Reuben has his son and family. We leave
for the East on Saturday. Are you done with your
summer teaching? Perhaps we can get together next week, or
have, at least, a nice long talk. My cell phone
is)(5050577-9684.
I think of you a lot,
love, Vera

Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:08:06 -0400

  Cathrene Connery <cconnery@ithaca.edu> wrote:
> Hi Eric and Shirley,
> Thanks for your eloquent discussion. It is so
>validating to read your voices. Can you clarify which
>genre of literacy you are speaking of? Humans have been
>"reading" and "writing" for thousands of years. From the
>stars in navigational paths to the symptoms of illness,
>the flash of colored fabric as a signal for battle to the
>repetition of movement in dance, we cannot forget
>multi-modal genres nor what is being called 21rst century
>literacies (in contrast to today's previous discussion on
>ISI and academic journals). The cultural-historical
>notion of cognitive pluralism extends Vygotsky's narrow
>view of the "written word". Just some fun ideas to play
>around with on a muggy night in Ithaca!
> Best wishes,
> Cathrene
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>
>> Shirley:
>>
>> Literacy and its impact upon human development is a
>>fascinating subject
>> indeed. I am one who falls short of placing it as THE
>>tool that impacts
>> the development of higher psychological functions more
>>then any other
>> semiotic process structure. Such as the process
>>structure of understanding
>> that sunrise is the beginning of a new day and a full
>>moon represents the
>> passing of 28 days. Therefore, for me, LSV is a great
>>starting point in
>> understanding human development but his theories place
>>far too much
>> emphasis on literacy and in education in general he
>>believed social
>> engineering would erase many of the ills of society.
>> Xtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> cc:
>> bcc:
>> Subject: [xmca] Vygotsky-text-context-thinking
>> Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> 07/08/2008 09:08 PM CET
>> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> <font
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>> Hi Eric,
>>
>> I agree with Vygotsky!
>>
>> I am fascinated that he wrote this because I am/was
>>writing a rather
>> abortive PhD on precisely this theme.
>>
>> I was/am interested in applying a Vygotskian approach to
>>learning (of
>> scientific concepts) to learning the academic literacy
>>"frames" that
>> are required within and across the different disciplines
>>and within
>> the range of writing required - reports, essays, etc. ie
>>applying
>> Vygotsky to e Shirley-style Genre Pedagogy, drawing on
>>Vygotsky and
>> Halliday et al, both in different ways.
>>
>> But I also agree with those like Scribner and Cole and
>>Street when
>> they say that writing is shaped by and reflects culture
>>. However I
>> agree with Vy when he says that the process of writing
>>itself
>> develops thought. ie as I write this, it scaffolds my
>>thinking about
>> the issue. You asking me the question, and me having to
>>reply in the
>> form of a Shirley-email (mode) within the XMCA context
>>(field and
>> mode) makes me further develop my ideas on the topic.
>>
>> I admit that when I noticed that I was replying to the
>>xmca list I
>> was somewhat more nervous, and will re-edit this more
>>than I would
>> have done (tenor) because it is going to the whole list.
>>Does that
>> process mean I refine my thoughts even more???
>>
>> I hope this makes sense to you!
>>
>> Shirley
>>
>> On 8 Jul 2008, at 20:51, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Shirley:
>>>
>>> The best reference for this is A.R. Luria's 1976
>>>publication,
>>> "Cognitive
>>> development: its cultural and social foundations.' IN
>>>this book Luria
>>> describes the literaqcy studies conducted by Luria and
>>>Vygotsky.
>>> Unfortunately this was during a bout of bad health for
>>>Vygotsky and I
>>> believe LSV was not on site for the entirity of the
>>>study. As a
>>> result of
>>> the data Vygotsky theorized that literacy was the key to
>>>humans
>>> developing
>>> higher psychological functions. This has since been
>>>discounted by the
>>> cross-cultural studies conducted by Cole, Glick,
>>>Scrobner and others.
>>>
>>> what do you think?
>>> eric
>>>
>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>><xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> cc:
>>> bcc:
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotskyan approach to
>>>mental health -
>>> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and
>>>psychotherapeutic semiotic
>>> mediation.
>>> Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> 07/08/2008 10:17 AM CET
>>> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>> <font
>>> size=-1></font>
>>>
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>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> I would be interested to hear more about what you
>>>consider to be
>>> Vygotsky's misunderstandings of literacy and its effect
>>>on higher
>>> mental functions.
>>> As far as I am aware he didn't write much more than a
>>>few pages on
>>> this. What he wrote was rather interesting.
>>>
>>> What do you think is the problem?
>>>
>>> Shirley
>>>
>>> On 7 Jul 2008, at 14:47, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Peter;
>>>>
>>>> I believe as a consumer of mental health services you
>>>>fall under
>>>> the axiom
>>>> "highly qualified" to discuss the issue. I believe
>>>>Vygotsky's
>>>> error in his
>>>> theories on defectology are similar to his
>>>>misunderstanding of
>>>> literacy and
>>>> its effect on higher mental functions. My humble
>>>>opinion places
>>>> this error
>>>> in Vygotsky's marriage to marxism and the march towards
>>>>the 'better
>>>> man',
>>>> but that is certainly a subject for another time.
>>>> Whether there
>>>> be an
>>>> error in theorizing or not Vygotsky's contribution to
>>>>the study of
>>>> special
>>>> education is HUGE. If one thinks of the augmentation
>>>>utilized
>>>> these days
>>>> by students who have disabilities it is specifically
>>>>what Vygotsky
>>>> viewed
>>>> as a broadening of the social mileau and semiotic
>>>>offerings. I
>>>> have many
>>>> more thoughts on the subject but time is short and
>>>>usually people
>>>> have
>>>> other things, such as the new XMCA article, to discuss.
>>>>
>>>> eric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Peter
>>>> Smagorinsky" To:
>>>> "'eXtended
>>>> Mind, Culture, Activity'" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>> <smago@uga.edu> cc:
>>>> Sent by: Subject:
>>>>RE: [xmca]
>>>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic
>>>> xmca-bounces@web roots
>>>> of mental
>>>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>>>> er.ucsd.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 07/06/2008 07:24
>>>> AM
>>>> Please respond
>>>> to "eXtended
>>>> Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have some very tentative thoughts on Vygotsky's
>>>>approach to mental
>>>> health, extrapolated from what I've read in the
>>>>Cambridge
>>>> Companion to
>>>> Vygotsky, particularly the chapter by Kozulin and
>>>>Gindis. I should
>>>> qualify
>>>> my comments by saying that I have no scholarly
>>>>credentials for
>>>> making this
>>>> interpretation; mental health is not my field of study.
>>>>At the same
>>>> time,
>>>> I've personally dealt with mental health issues;
>>>>Asperger's, high
>>>> anxiety,
>>>> tourette's, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and other
>>>>neuroatypical
>>>> makeups
>>>> have run in my family for at least 3 generations,
>>>>including through
>>>> me. So
>>>> I do have a vested interest in this discussion, if
>>>>little in the
>>>> way of
>>>> formal knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> The field of defectology had origins in a mechanistic
>>>>mindset that
>>>> viewed
>>>> non-normative children as having flaws that could be
>>>>repaired in
>>>> the manner
>>>> of a broken-down car engine. Rather than taking the
>>>>mechanistic
>>>> approach
>>>> that children with special needs were defective and
>>>>could be fixed,
>>>> Vygotsky viewed the question of their condition "as a
>>>> sociocultural rather
>>>> than an organic or individual developmental phenomenon"
>>>>(p. CCV,
>>>> 334).
>>>> Kozulin and Gindis find that
>>>> "The essence of Vygotsky's approach to remedial
>>>>education is in
>>>> addressing
>>>> the secondary disability, that is, by countering the
>>>>negative social
>>>> consequences of the primary disability. Vygotsky
>>>>believed that
>>>> physical and
>>>> mental impairment could be overcome by creating
>>>>alternative but
>>>> essentially
>>>> equivalent roads for cultural development. By acquiring
>>>>the
>>>> psychological
>>>> tools, disabled children transform their natural
>>>>abilities into
>>>> higher
>>>> mental functions as do their nondisabled peers." (CCV,
>>>>p. 345)
>>>>
>>>> To Vygotsky, rather than "fixing" the "defect" in the
>>>>child,
>>>> an educator
>>>> should strive to minimize or eliminate any environmental
>>>>factors
>>>> that could
>>>> amplify the effects of the original point of concern. I
>>>>imagine
>>>> that this
>>>> effort might focus on diminishing whatever stigmas
>>>>follow from being
>>>> different; that is, it might attempt to educate people
>>>>in the
>>>> setting about
>>>> how to view those with non-normative physical or mental
>>>>makeups and
>>>> treat
>>>> them respectfully and in light of their potential. A
>>>>second
>>>> approach would
>>>> be to broaden the sign-and-tool systems available for
>>>>mediation.
>>>> Again,
>>>> this tack would require changes in the environment so
>>>>that new
>>>> tools become
>>>> sanctioned, and new approaches to assessment become
>>>>available to
>>>> allow for
>>>> alternative paths to performance.
>>>>
>>>> I would guess that he would regard "mental illness" the
>>>>same way he
>>>> would
>>>> view other forms of "disability": not so much as
>>>>defective parts
>>>> that need
>>>> repair, but as non-normative ways of being that call for
>>>>new activity
>>>> systems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (12) From Achilles
>>>>
>>>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic
>>>>roots of mental
>>>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>>>>
>>>> "He (Vygotsky) did not believe in meaningless defect or
>>>> retrogression:
>>>> since the construction of the human mind follows a
>>>>certain pattern,
>>>> its
>>>> destruction also cannot be arbitrary and therefore
>>>>reveals specific
>>>> rupture
>>>> lines characteristic of the formation of the human
>>>>psyche. That is
>>>> why
>>>> observations of the acquisition of language in the
>>>>deaf-mute, concept
>>>> formation in schizophrenics, and the rehabilitation of
>>>>aphasics
>>>> were for
>>>> Vygotsky no less a part of developmental psychology than
>>>>the
>>>> sensory-motor
>>>> behavior of the two-year old." (Alex Kozuin, Vygotsky's
>>>> psychology ? a
>>>> biography of ideas, 1990 ? p. 195)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I want to study Vygotsky´s theoretical contributions to
>>>>Mental
>>>> Health: (1)
>>>> mental diseases theoretical and methodological
>>>>comprehension; and (2)
>>>> therapeutics dialogical practices, in a
>>>>cultural-historical
>>>> approach. And I
>>>> asked here on the existence of English translation from
>>>> "Проблема развития
>>>> и распада высших психических
>>>> функций", because I wish to translate it to
>>>> Portuguese but not if it exists in English. Mike Cole
>>>>suggests
>>>> reading
>>>> Luria, and Akhutina and Rodina. Very important
>>>>suggestions, I will
>>>> study
>>>> Akhutina and Rodina, and search another references by
>>>>Luria than
>>>> the ones I
>>>> have here (more in "classical science" style, than in
>>>>the
>>>> "romantic
>>>> science" books, maybe the ones what I need, I don't
>>>>know). But,
>>>> what more
>>>> can you suggest to me about the "vygotskyan approach to
>>>>mental
>>>> health -
>>>> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and
>>>>psychotherapeutic semiotic
>>>> mediation"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much.
>>>>
>>>> Achilles,
>>>> Umuarama, July 5, 2008.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (11) From Mike
>>>> Luria-- Also check out Akhutina and Rodina article at
>>>>LCHC. And ask
>>>> on XMCA
>>>> to see what comes up/mike
>>>> (10) From Achilles
>>>> I remember that there was a vygotskyan metaphorthat 'a
>>>>building
>>>> does not
>>>> tumbling down, by anotherlaws that ones it was
>>>>constructed' (not
>>>> exactly
>>>> this words,I quote by core)- maybe quoted by Kozulin, I
>>>>don't
>>>> exactlyremember high now. Seems to me a important
>>>>methodological
>>>> principle,
>>>> but I haven't seen much empirical work raised in it, in
>>>>mental health
>>>> historical-cultural research, if you could help me with
>>>>this to, I
>>>> will be
>>>> very greatfull too.Thank you again, very
>>>>much.Achilles,Umuarama, 04
>>>> July,
>>>> 2008.
>>>> (9) From Mike
>>>> Yes, i firmly believe that.very important.mike
>>>> (8) From Achilles
>>>> Thanks...I had writed about my interest in othermail
>>>>before read
>>>> this.Do
>>>> you think that 'raspada (desintegration) problem'can
>>>>help us
>>>> understand
>>>> some questions to mentalhealth in historical-cultural
>>>> approach?Achilles,Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>>>
>>>> (7) From Bella
>>>> Why italian? I sent you the Russian text- here it is
>>>>once
>>>> more.Mike, we
>>>> just recently discussed problems of translation. If you
>>>>want it tobe
>>>> published in English, it would be reasonable to use the
>>>>original
>>>> Russiantext.Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>>> (6) From Mike
>>>> Whoa!! here is the article for Poalo in Italian!! I have
>>>>sent to
>>>> Pentti
>>>> fortranslation in JREEP/mikePS-- Thanks BorisЛегче найти
>>>> на итальянском:Il
>>>> problema dello sviluppo e della disintegrazione delle
>>>>funzioni
>>>> psichichesuperiori // La psicologia sovietica 1917-1936.
>>>>Roma: Edit.
>>>> Riuniti, 1976.P. 330-347.С уважением,
>>>> (5) From Mike
>>>> No need to apologize for your English at all,
>>>>Achilles!You provide
>>>> a great
>>>> reference in Kozulin's book that should be accessible to
>>>>readers of
>>>> XMCA,
>>>> and in the article from Vygotsky reader.
>>>>Abrigado!:-)mike
>>>>
>>>> (4) From Achilles
>>>> Joao, Eugene and Mike,
>>>> The original text, in Russian we have in Russian
>>>>Wikipedia, but the
>>>> link
>>>> seems to be broken. But I have downloded it before.
>>>>(atached here)
>>>>
>>>> I wonder that the 'raspada' (disintegration/decay)
>>>>problem is
>>>> related not
>>>> only to the defectology matters, but to the
>>>>pathopsychology's too
>>>> (like
>>>> schizophrenia and Pick's disease
>>>> - Kozulin presents this question in 'Vygotsky - a
>>>>biography of
>>>> ideas' (cap.
>>>> 6 ? Mind in Trouble - section Psychopathology and
>>>>Regression); And
>>>> there is
>>>> a Vygotsky´s article in the Vygotsky Reader about
>>>>'Though in
>>>> Schizophrenia'
>>>> (I translate to Portuguese); the text about Pick's
>>>>disease by
>>>> Vygotsky,
>>>> Samukhin and Bierenbaum 'K voprosu o dementsii pri
>>>>bolezni Pika -
>>>> klinitcheskoe i eksperimen- tal'no issledovanie' we find
>>>>only in
>>>> Russian
>>>> too, Joao obtains it here in the list and pass to me),
>>>>but I don't
>>>> know
>>>> yet. I can try translate the Russian 'Problema razvitia
>>>>i raspada
>>>> vyschikh
>>>> psikhitcheskikh funktsii', aided by dictionaries and
>>>>another on-line
>>>> translation tools, trying to learn Russian psychological
>>>> vocabulary, but if
>>>> Eugene did it, its better.
>>>> Thanks. Excuse me about my wrong English writing, ok?
>>>>But I think
>>>> that I
>>>> can understand you very well, even so.
>>>> Achilles
>>>> Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>>>
>>>> (3) From Mike
>>>> Hi Joao & Eugene--
>>>> I do not know of this article in English, although
>>>>probably we can
>>>> get it
>>>> translated if it is not. Meantime, I can recommend two
>>>>sources that
>>>> should
>>>> help:
>>>> Vygotsky, L. (1993). The collected works of
>>>>L.S.Vygotsky. Vol.2: The
>>>> fundamentals of defectology (abnormal psychology and
>>>>learning
>>>> disabilities)
>>>> (R.W.Rieber & A.S. Carton, Eds.). NY: Plenum Press.
>>>> and
>>>> Katarina Rodina's article which can be found at lchc as
>>>>follows:
>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/VygotskyDisabilityEJSNE2007.pdf
>>>> AR Luria's work should be relevant in several places.
>>>> Perhaps our Russian bibliophiles can come up with an
>>>>origanal for
>>>> translation?
>>>> mike
>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:58 AM,
>>>>
>>>> (2) From Joao
>>>> Dear friends... somebody has this text in english:
>>>> 'Problema razvitia i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh
>>>>funktsii'
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Joao Martins
>>>>
>>>> (1) Achilles para João
>>>>
>>>> Eu também teria outro favor para te pedir. É de
>>>>perguntarna tua
>>>> lista XMCA
>>>> (é isso?), sobre haver ou não o seguinte textoem inglês.
>>>>Em russo
>>>> eu já
>>>> tenho e quero traduzir (vai ser maisrápido que o do
>>>>Pick), mas se
>>>> já
>>>> existir em outro lugar, nãohá necessidade. É o
>>>>seguinte:'Problema
>>>> razvitia
>>>> i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii''Problema do
>>>> desenvolvimento e
>>>> desintegração das funções psíquicassuperiores.'Será que
>>>>já se
>>>> encontra esse
>>>> texto em inglês ou espanhol?
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Dr. M. Cathrene Connery
> Assistant Professor of Education
> 607.274.7382
> Ithaca College
>
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Received on Wed Jul 9 09:39 PDT 2008