Eric,
So far as I know, Vygotsky didn't write very much that was directly 'political'. But what he did write was surely not open to
being reduced to a notion of 'social engineering' as a basis for erasing the ills of society. His essay on 'the socialist
alteration of man' is about human emancipation, and the necessity of breaking the limits of capitalist society which diminishes
and distorts human development. (The text is available on the web at
http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/socialism.htm)
The 'social engineering' charge might be applicable to *some* versions of CHAT, but hardly to LSV himself.
On the question of literacy, while it's anything but the be-all and the end-all, it does surely make one very significant
contribution to overall human development: it does permit - perhaps more than anything else our species has so far developed - the
*storing* of collaboratively developed knowledge so that it can be recovered and further developed by succeeding generations. It
also permits communication between people who cannot engage in face-to-face conversation. We can 'converse' across the oceans, and
with the dead and the not-yet born, in ways that 'pre-literate' peoples could not imagine. To enable the largest possible part of
humanity to have access to the fruits of literacy is, thus, to empower them socially, rather than to 'engineer' them.
Late night thoughts from rainy Manchester.
Colin Barker
Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester
Metropolitan University's email disclaimer available on its website
http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer
>>> <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> 07/08/08 11:23 PM >>>
Shirley:
Literacy and its impact upon human development is a fascinating subject
indeed. I am one who falls short of placing it as THE tool that impacts
the development of higher psychological functions more then any other
semiotic process structure. Such as the process structure of understanding
that sunrise is the beginning of a new day and a full moon represents the
passing of 28 days. Therefore, for me, LSV is a great starting point in
understanding human development but his theories place far too much
emphasis on literacy and in education in general he believed social
engineering would erase many of the ills of society.
Xtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
cc:
bcc:
Subject: [xmca] Vygotsky-text-context-thinking
Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
07/08/2008 09:08 PM CET
Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <font
size=-1></font>
Hi Eric,
I agree with Vygotsky!
I am fascinated that he wrote this because I am/was writing a rather
abortive PhD on precisely this theme.
I was/am interested in applying a Vygotskian approach to learning (of
scientific concepts) to learning the academic literacy "frames" that
are required within and across the different disciplines and within
the range of writing required - reports, essays, etc. ie applying
Vygotsky to e Shirley-style Genre Pedagogy, drawing on Vygotsky and
Halliday et al, both in different ways.
But I also agree with those like Scribner and Cole and Street when
they say that writing is shaped by and reflects culture . However I
agree with Vy when he says that the process of writing itself
develops thought. ie as I write this, it scaffolds my thinking about
the issue. You asking me the question, and me having to reply in the
form of a Shirley-email (mode) within the XMCA context (field and
mode) makes me further develop my ideas on the topic.
I admit that when I noticed that I was replying to the xmca list I
was somewhat more nervous, and will re-edit this more than I would
have done (tenor) because it is going to the whole list. Does that
process mean I refine my thoughts even more???
I hope this makes sense to you!
Shirley
On 8 Jul 2008, at 20:51, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrot> development: its cultural and social foundations.' IN this book Luria
> describes the literaqcy studies conducted by Luria and Vygotsky.
> Unfortunately this was during a bout of bad health for Vygotsky and I
> believe LSV was not on site for the entirity of the study. As a
> result of
> the data Vygotsky theorized that literacy was the key to humans
> developing
> higher psychological functions. This has since been discounted by the
> cross-cultural studies conducted by Cole, Glick, Scrobner and others.
>
> what do you think?
> eric
>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> cc:
> bcc:
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotskyan approach to mental health -
> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic
> mediation.
> Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com>
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> 07/08/2008 10:17 AM CET
> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <font
> size=-1></font>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
> I would be interested to hear more about what you consider to be
> Vygotsky's misunderstandings of literacy and its effect on higher
> mental functions.
> As far as I am aware he didn't write much more than a few pages on
> this. What he wrote was rather interesting.
>
> What do you think is the problem?
>
> Shirley
>
> On 7 Jul 2008, at 14:47, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
>>
>> Peter;
>>
>> I believe as a consumer of mental health services you fall under
>> the axiom
>> "highly qualified" to discuss the issue. I believe Vygotsky's
>> error in his
>> theories on defectology are similar to his misunderstanding of
>> literacy and
>> its effect on higher mental functions. My humble opinion places
>> this error
>> in Vygotsky's marriage to marxism and the march towards the 'better
>> man',
>> but that is certainly a subject for another time. Whether there
>> be an
>> error in theorizing or not Vygotsky's contribution to the study of
>> special
>> education is HUGE. If one thinks of the augmentation utilized
>> these days
>> by students who have disabilities it is specifically what Vygotsky
>> viewed
>> as a broadening of the social mileau and semiotic offerings. I
>> have many
>> more thoughts on the subject but time is short and usually people
>> have
>> other things, such as the new XMCA article, to discuss.
>>
>> eric
>>
>>
>>
>> "Peter
>> Smagorinsky" To: "'eXtended
>> Mind, Culture, Activity'" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <smago@uga.edu> cc:
>> Sent by: Subject: RE: [xmca]
>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic
>> xmca-bounces@web roots of mental
>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>> er.ucsd.edu
>>
>>
>> 07/06/2008 07:24
>> AM
>> Please respond
>> to "eXtended
>> Mind, Culture,
>> Activity"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have some very tentative thoughts on Vygotsky's approach to mental
>> health, extrapolated from what I've read in the Cambridge
>> Companion to
>> Vygotsky, particularly the chapter by Kozulin and Gindis. I should
>> qualify
>> my comments by saying that I have no scholarly credentials for
>> making this
>> interpretation; mental health is not my field of study. At the same
>> time,
>> I've personally dealt with mental health issues; Asperger's, high
>> anxiety,
>> tourette's, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and other neuroatypical
>> makeups
>> have run in my family for at least 3 generations, including through
>> me. So
>> I do have a vested interest in this discussion, if little in the
>> way of
>> formal knowledge.
>>
>> The field of defectology had origins in a mechanistic mindset that
>> viewed
>> of a broken-down car engine. Rather than taking the mechanistic
>> approach
>> that children with special needs were defective and could be fixed,
>> Vygotsky viewed the question of their condition "as a
>> sociocultural rather
>> than an organic or individual developmental phenomenon" (p. CCV,
>> 334).
>> Kozulin and Gindis find that
>> "The essence of Vygotsky's approach to remedial education is in
>> addressing
>> the secondary disability, that is, by countering the negative social
>> consequences of the primary disability. Vygotsky believed that
>> physical and
>> mental impairment could be overcome by creating alternative but
>> essentially
>> equivalent roads for cultural development. By acquiring the
>> psychological
>> tools, disabled children transform their natural abilities into
>> higher
>> mental functions as do their nondisabled peers." (CCV, p. 345)
>>
>> To Vygotsky, rather than "fixing" the "defect" in the child,
>> an educator
>> should strive to minimize or eliminate any environmental factors
>> that could
>> amplify the effects of the original point of concern. I imagine
>> that this
>> effort might focus on diminishing whatever stigmas follow from being
>> different; that is, it might attempt to educate people in the
>> setting about
>> how to view those with non-normative physical or mental makeups and
>> treat
>> them respectfully and in light of their potential. A second
>> approach would
>> be to broaden the sign-and-tool systems available for mediation.
>> Again,
>> this tack would require changes in the environment so that new
>> tools become
>> sanctioned, and new approaches to assessment become available to
>> allow for
>> alternative paths to performance.
>>
>> I would guess that he would regard "mental illness" the same way he
>> would
>> view other forms of "disability": not so much as defective parts
>> that need
>> repair, but as non-normative ways of being that call for new activity
>> systems.
>>
>>
>>
>> (12) From Achilles
>>
>> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic roots of mental
>> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>>
>> "He (Vygotsky) did not believe in meaningless defect or
>> retrogression:
>> since the construction of the human mind follows a certain pattern,
>> its
>> destruction also cannot be arbitrary and therefore reveals specific
>> rupture
>> lines characteristic of the formation of the human psyche. That is
>> why
>> observations of the acquisition of language in the deaf-mute, concept
>> formation in schizophrenics, and the rehabilitation of aphasics
>> were for
>> Vygotsky no less a part of developmental psychology than the
>> sensory-motor
>> behavior of the two-year old." (Alex Kozuin, Vygotsky's
>> psychology ? a
>> biography of ideas, 1990 ? p. 195)
>>
>>
>> I want to study Vygotsky´s theoretical contributions to Mental
>> Health: (1)
>> mental diseases theoretical and methodological comprehension; and (2)
>> therapeutics dialogical practices, in a cultural-historical
>> approach. And I
>> asked here on the existence of English translation from
>> "Проблема развития
>> и распада высших психических
>> функций", because I wish to translate it to
>> Portuguese but not if it exists in English. Mike Cole suggests
>> reading
>> Luria, and Akhutina and Rodina. Very important suggestions, I will
>> study
>> Akhutina and Rodina, and search another references by Luria than
>> the ones I
>> have here (more in "classical science" style, than in the
>> "romantic
>> science" books, maybe the ones what I need, I don't know). But,
>> what more
>> can you suggest to me about the "vygotskyan approach to mental
>> health -
>> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic
>> mediation"?
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>>
>> Achilles,
>> Umuarama, July 5, 2008.
>>
>>
>> (11) From Mike
>> Luria-- Also check out Akhutina and Rodina article at LCHC. And ask
>> on XMCA
>> to see what comes up/mike
>> (10) From Achilles
>> I remember that there was a vygotskyan metaphorthat 'a building
>> does not
>> tumbling down, by anotherlaws that ones it was constructed' (not
>> exactly
>> this words,I quote by core)- maybe quoted by Kozulin, I don't
>> exactlyremember high now. Seems to me a important methodological
>> principle,
>> but I haven't seen much empirical work raised in it, in mental health
>> historical-cultural research, if you could help me with this to, I
>> will be
>> very greatfull too.Thank you again, very much.Achilles,Umuarama, 04
>> July,
>> 2008.
>> (9) From Mike
>> Yes, i firmly believe that.very important.mike
>> (8) From Achilles
>> Thanks...I had writed about my interest in othermail before read
>> this.Do
>> you think that 'raspada (desintegration) problem'can help us
>> understand
>> some questions to mentalhealth in historical-cultural
>> approach?Achilles,Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>
>> (7) From Bella
>> Why italian? I sent you the Russian text- here it is once
>> more.Mike, we
>> just recently discussed problems of translation. If you want it tobe
>> published in English, it would be reasonable to use the original
>> Russiantext.Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>> (6) From Mike
>> Whoa!! here is the article for Poalo in Italian!! I have sent to
>> Pentti
>> fortranslation in JREEP/mikePS-- Thanks BorisЛегче найти
>> на итальянском:Il
>> problema dello sviluppo e della disintegrazione delle funzioni
>> psichichesuperiori // La psicologia sovietica 1917-1936. Roma: Edit.
>> Riuniti, 1976.P. 330-347.С уважением,
>> (5) From Mike
>> No need to apologize for your English at all, Achilles!You provide
>> a great
>> reference in Kozulin's book that should be accessible to readers of
>> XMCA,
>> and in the article from Vygotsky reader. Abrigado!:-)mike
>>
>> (4) From Achilles
>> Joao, Eugene and Mike,
>> The original text, in Russian we have in Russian Wikipedia, but the
>> link
>> seems to be broken. But I have downloded it before. (atached here)
>>
>> I wonder that the 'raspada' (disintegration/decay) problem is
>> related not
>> only to the defectology matters, but to the pathopsychology's too
>> (like
>> schizophrenia and Pick's disease
>> - Kozulin presents this question in 'Vygotsky - a biography of
>> ideas' (cap.
>> 6 ? Mind in Trouble - section Psychopathology and Regression); And
>> there is
>> a Vygotsky´s article in the Vygotsky Reader about 'Though in
>> Schizophrenia'
>> (I translate to Portuguese); the text about Pick's disease by
>> Vygotsky,
>> Samukhin and Bierenbaum 'K voprosu o dementsii pri bolezni Pika -
>> klinitcheskoe i eksperimen- tal'no issledovanie' we find only in
>> Russian
>> too, Joao obtains it here in the list and pass to me), but I don't
>> know
>> yet. I can try translate the Russian 'Problema razvitia i raspada
>> vyschikh
>> psikhitcheskikh funktsii', aided by dictionaries and another on-line
>> translation tools, trying to learn Russian psychological
>> vocabulary, but if
>> Eugene did it, its better.
>> Thanks. Excuse me about my wrong English writing, ok? But I think
>> that I
>> can understand you very well, even so.
>> Achilles
>> Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>>
>> (3) From Mike
>> Hi Joao & Eugene--
>> I do not know of this article in English, although probably we can
>> get it
>> translated if it is not. Meantime, I can recommend two sources that
>> should
>> help:
>> Vygotsky, L. (1993). The collected works of L.S.Vygotsky. Vol.2: The
>> fundamentals of defectology (abnormal psychology and learning
>> disabilities)
>> (R.W.Rieber & A.S. Carton, Eds.). NY: Plenum Press.
>> and
>> Katarina Rodina's article which can be found at lchc as follows:
>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/VygotskyDisabilityEJSNE2007.pdf
>> AR Luria's work should be relevant in several places.
>> Perhaps our Russian bibliophiles can come up with an origanal for
>> translation?
>> mike
>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:58 AM,
>>
>> (2) From Joao
>> Dear friends... somebody has this text >> 'Problema razvitia i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii'
>> Thanks
>> Joao Martins
>>
>> (1) Achilles para João
>>
>> Eu também teria outro favor para te pedir. É de perguntarna tua
>> lista XMCA
>> (é isso?), sobre haver ou não o seguinte textoem inglês. Em russo
>> eu já
>> tenho e quero traduzir (vai ser maisrápido que o do Pick), mas se
>> já
>> existir em outro lugar, nãohá necessidade. É o seguinte:'Problema
>> razvitia
>> i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii''Problema do
>> desenvolvimento e
>> desintegração das funções psíquicassuperiores.'Será que já se
>> encontra esse
>> texto em inglês ou espanhol?
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